The Road to 5.0

[Theodric]

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Again, the nations and individuals resorting to such behaviour do so in large part because they do not have the plot convenience of the Warrior of Light to fall back on. This is especially true of Pureblood Garleans who also do not have the plot convenience of aether to fall back on. The game goes to great lengths to show things from different perspectives. There's no reason to assume that such will not be the case with Garlemald, either.

It's a very common trope in Japanese media, as pointed out in my previous post. I'm happy to provide more examples though. If anyone here is familiar with Attack on Titan then I'll point to that as an excellent example of nuanced characters doing questionable things. I've said it in the past and I'll say it again. Discussions of morality are largely irrelevant here as they're often very subjective and prone to bias. When discussing the lore, I discuss things from the perspective of the characters/factions involved. I urge others to do the same. Nobody here is likely to change anybody else's mind, after all. Though with that said...it's hard not to note that this place has become quieter over time and only seems to pick up whenever Garlemald is brought up.

[WhiteArchmage]

Can we PLEASE not turn this thread into yet another discussion on the morality of Garlemald? We end up going in circles for Thaliak knows how long and reach nowhere.

On to what I HAVE noticed about the Garleans, is it seems they're the favorite dunces of the Ascians: Lahabrea buddied himself to Gaius, who seemed to take him at face value until, oops, this isn't what we wanted Ultima for. Then Varis is frenemies with Elidibus (who, in fairness, is good at making pretty much everyone go "I don't trust you but you seem useful, I'm gonna regret that in 2 patch cycles"), makes me wonder is Solus himself had an Ascian "counselor" (hells, maybe Lahabrea himself), who told him it was a great idea to send his flagship down to conquer this little piece of land called Eorzea, especially fly it over Mor Dhona, nothing can go wrong there, no siree.

I do believe Maxima, "Shadowhunter"*cough*Gaius, and whatever support we get from the Populares faction will be key to the next expansion. I'm even willing to put money on Garlemald itself being a new hub city (as much as I want Radz-at-Han for the new hub), the WoL being invited as part of a peace-keeping treaty backed by the Populares. Even if we need to double back into Garlemald for the final dungeon it can be done by it being, say, the Evil Tower of Ominousness(tm) seen in the SB opening movie.

[Theodric]

Varis, at least, doesn't seem to be fond of Elidibus. Nor has he been shown to trust him. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if Elidibus ends up taking out Varis and ascends to the throne whilst piloting Zenos' corpse. Ideally, I'm hoping for an interesting tale where Varis is exiled and/or barely escapes with his life and ends up aligning with the Warrior of Light out of necessity. When Regula died, his last words were about how the Emperor would have need of the Warrior of the Light in the future. I'm still waiting for the payoff from that particular plot thread.

Having Varis get involved in pushing for reform would be a compelling storyline and help makes things a little different to the usual approach of venturing into a new region, defeating the current leader and then replacing them with someone different. If nothing else, I have no doubt that if Varis dies it will be due to tragic circumstances and he'll be painted in a fairly noble light. That tends to be the case with the human antagonists in this setting more often than not.

[ObsidianFire]

I think the "sympathetic enemy" we could have made an alliance with is already dead. As mentioned in "In Darkness Blooms the Lily" Varis was opposed by Titus, another member of the Royal Family who was backed by the Popularis. And he lost. I would not be surprised to learn from the Popularis that one of the things Titus was planning on doing if he won the civil war was reaching out to the WoL and the rest of Eorzea. It would explain why the Maxima really does respect the WoL and Scions. We've never seen any Garlean actually respect us as the WoL until we've beaten them on the field of battle before Maxima stuck around in 4.4.

So the Garlean leaders that are left that we could ally with is Varis, who is backing the party that thinks Garleans are better then everyone just because they're Garleans. And Giaus, who respects us because he believes in might makes right and we beat him both on the field of battle and being right about how eikons should (or shouldn't rather) be dealt with. Neither of those are ideal options. Varis because I'm pretty sure he'll never respect us even if he knows he needs us. Giaus because if it ever turns out that he's stronger then us, I can see him doing his own thing. And there's the small matter that Garlamald thinks he's a traitor...

It leads to the interesting situation of having a political organization that we could side with, but no specific leader of that organization for us to connect with. I can see much of 4.4 and 4.5 being about who should take charge of the Popularis in opposition to Varis. Which would be a really, really scary position to be in. Talk about painting a target on your back.

[Theodric]

It's likely that there's much more to Varis than meets the eye. Most of what we know of him comes from biased sources. He's ruthless, certainly, though he has been shown to be capable of restraint. We can safely assume that the expansion is going to take heavy inspiration from the politics of the Roman Empire...which in itself is a very complicated and nuanced affair. We don't even know if Titus was as pure in motive as is commonly speculated. Let's not forget, Asahi successfully infiltrated the Populares and Regula van Hydrus describes the War of Succession as 'bloody'.

As an aside, here's the passage from Yotsuyu's story related to Titus:

'Yet on the day she was to begin the operation, the garrison's intelligence officer called her back. They had received word that an imperial legatus would shortly be arriving from the capital to assess the situation in Doma. Lord Zenos was his name─one she had heard before.

With Emperor Solus on his deathbed, a clandestine war of succession was already being waged in Garlemald. Solus's eldest being dead, his grandson Varis was next in line to the throne, but the Emperor’s second son Titus had other ideas, and no shortage of support. What he did not have, however, was Varis’s standing with the military, nor less a ready heir─this Zenos.

As a public ally of Titus, the viceroy plainly considered the legatus a threat, Yotsuyu saw. And the fact that they would entrust her with so important a target bespoke how high she had risen in their esteem.'

So, Varis was next in line to the throne and Titus attempted to overthrow him.

Then, of course, there's this passage:

'"Waiting on the storm to cover their approach..." he murmured. "I was curious to hear more of your story, but the evening's true entertainment has arrived."

"What─" Yotsuyu had barely uttered the question when the nearby window exploded inwards. Ears ringing from the noise, she registered several black-clad forms clambering in through the breach.
The intruders drew blades, and surrounded Zenos with appalling swiftness. Yotsuyu, meanwhile, scrambled backwards in a crouch, and took in the unfolding scene. Assassins, she realized coldly, and not terribly discrete ones. They had dressed themselves in the garb of shinobi, but their swords, and the manner in which they held them, were distinctly imperial.

"Bastards!" she screamed, furious at her own gullibility. They sent me here to die!

Not one of the masked killers so much as glanced in her direction. Zenos himself seemed unconcerned, bored even, as he surveyed the naked steel arrayed against him. Making no move to retrieve his own sword, propped out of reach against the wall, the legatus calmly addressed the room.

"'Lord Zenos, slain in the arms of a Doman courtesan.' Yes, such a scandal is worth the ignominy of failing to protect a royal guest." His lips curled into a humorless smile. "And should Doma's fugitive ruler be implicated in the plot, all the better. The viceroy would have his reinforcements within a week."

The assassins remained mute as they edged closer and closer. In the next instant they were upon him, blades flashing in synchrony, their tightening circle obscuring his armored form from Yotsuyu's view.'

So, Imperial Shinobi attempted to assassinate Zenos on Titus' behalf. That seems at odds with the concept of Titus being some peaceful man pushing for reform. Who else would Titus have been willing to kill or condemn in his attempt to secure power? What sort of reform would he have pushed and would it have truly been in Garlemald's best interests?

[Lauront]

My last words on the topic of Garlean ethics for this thread - people keep bringing up Project Meteor, when we know this was basically a few of the Empire's upper echelons and Bahamut (the real mastermind) acting through a tempered Nael, and when we know this was also opposed within the Empire, which included Varis, Gaius and several other nobles. As for Midgardsormr, he ultimately chose to engage the Garleans, who did not expect him. He overestimated his ability and lost. He did not choose to warn the Garleans of what would happen. So Midgardsormr is, in my view, largely responsible for what happened. The Ascians bear the rest of the responsibility for teaching the beast tribes how to summon, but hey, that's their job.

Let's face it - before the WoL came along, the city-states were just bashing their heads against the beast tribes and would have just as readily annihilated them, if they could. It makes it much easier to pretend to be morally righteous when you have the WoL doing your bidding, and spread propaganda about that, much as the city-states do.

None of the city-states is morally unimpeachable, particularly not Ul'dah (zombification of Sil'dih, generally vile attitude of the Syndicate), Ishgard (Dragonsong war - this would have entailed conscription to fight in this futile war) or Ala Mhigo (it tried to do to Gridania what Garlemald did to its neighbours during the Autumn War, but it lacked the means to see it through). They all would have done exactly the same to the beast tribes if they had the chance to (and were doing so, prior to the WoL and Scions), and let's not forget, these same beast tribes generally all of have an apostate faction in their ranks, for reasons that are obvious. The territories around Garlemald got what was coming to them. As for the Pureblood racial hierarchy, most of these cities operate hereditary hierarchies of one form or another - so what? Yes, the Empire could be better, yes it has some rather bad elements to it (particularly in Doma and Ala Mhigo, because they were the most rebellious provinces, so it was seen as necessary to bring them to heel), but no it does not mean its government is irredeemably evil, anymore than that of Ul'dah is. Now, will SE press Varis into making decisions that make it impossible to work with him or end in his demise? Possibly. In that case, I suspect we will be working with Gaius and the Populares instead.

[Lauront]

Can we PLEASE not turn this thread into yet another discussion on the morality of Garlemald? We end up going in circles for Thaliak knows how long and reach nowhere.

On to what I HAVE noticed about the Garleans, is it seems they're the favorite dunces of the Ascians: Lahabrea buddied himself to Gaius, who seemed to take him at face value until, oops, this isn't what we wanted Ultima for. Then Varis is frenemies with Elidibus (who, in fairness, is good at making pretty much everyone go "I don't trust you but you seem useful, I'm gonna regret that in 2 patch cycles"), makes me wonder is Solus himself had an Ascian "counselor" (hells, maybe Lahabrea himself), who told him it was a great idea to send his flagship down to conquer this little piece of land called Eorzea, especially fly it over Mor Dhona, nothing can go wrong there, no siree.

I do believe Maxima, "Shadowhunter"*cough*Gaius, and whatever support we get from the Populares faction will be key to the next expansion. I'm even willing to put money on Garlemald itself being a new hub city (as much as I want Radz-at-Han for the new hub), the WoL being invited as part of a peace-keeping treaty backed by the Populares. Even if we need to double back into Garlemald for the final dungeon it can be done by it being, say, the Evil Tower of Ominousness(tm) seen in the SB opening movie.

The Ascian overlords are meant to both be very potent foes (which I hope is reflected in 5.0) and also cunning manipulators (ditto). I suspect Varis is attempting a similar trick to Thordan's, and to use Elidibus as far as he can to further his own ends. The difficulty, I believe, will be that Elidibus is by far more cunning than Lahabrea or Igeyorhm.

[Alleo]

I am putting the Garlemald posting under spoiler because its kinda off topic. Will also be the last one about it here otherwise it will just end in another long discussion.

Thankfully we can take comfort in the fact that everything on that list is blown out of proportion and conveniently missing the wonderful nuances that are so very common in FFXIV's story. Eorzea is no saint and had been involved in atrocities across the ages, both past and present. .

What atrocities did Eorzea do in the last couple of years? Because all of my points from the list are from recent years alone. So please either give examples too or just accept that maybe the government of the recent Garlemald is far from fine. Also what exactly from the list is blown out of proportion? We know that they wanted to drop the moon on Eorzea and that this was not something completely done by Nael herself. It was only thanks to Bahamut that this did not happen. But in the end Garlemald started another Calamity with that. The poison and experiments are part of the main story or side stories. (We have one scientist that cant remember his past that developed the poison) So again how are they blown out of proportion? The envoirement pollution can be seen in the game itself in that zone and the fisher quest ist all about it too. The non existent freedom of speech is shown with the theater group and how Varis does not even allow certain Art. We also got to know through the story that people need to serve under Garlemald to even get a chance at being a normal citizien but we saw through the echo that some soldiers still look down on them and Gaius was kinda a exception in that but he too was all about conquering the land from the savages. So please if you want to argue against the list do it with examples and not just say that its blown out of proportion. That does not make a compelling argument.

Regula was not well known and one scene does not change the fact that he would have done genocide if Varis had wanted him too. Also he only did it because it was good for Garlemald too. Other than that we cant say much about his character either. Fordola is not a Garlean and still needs to work hard for her redemption and Yotsuyu was never redeemed. Her only chance at life was through memory loss and becoming Tsuyu but never through her old self. Also just because some have gotten something like a better light does not mean that all of them will get one. We have more than enough other villians in this story that still got no better view.

Also FF14 is not all the other FF so I cant see a reason to take them into this discussion..just because they did stuff there does not mean that it will happen here and look at villians like the lala that got cut in half. There was nothing good for him and he was just truly black. The same with Zenos. So no FF14 does have those too and we cant just simply say who will land there. But Varis and his rule (which is the evil part of Garlemald, not necessarily every person that lives there) cant be seen in any good light right now. Heck people like the theater group had to flee their own country thanks to him.

Anyway on topic:

I just thought about the part with the balance more while in bed and honestly I still believe that Elidibus is not truthful and I kinda wonder if we truly need a balance.

First: What exactly is meant with a balance? How is it achieved? What is there to say that its enough and fine?

For example the world as we know it, is fine right now even without a balance. But Zodiarks freedom seems to be bad for us and Hydaelyn and honestly I do question if balance would even be possible with him around. He was stronger than Hydaelyn (if we believe her words) thus why should he suddenly be fine with being balanced with her? Also we did not exist in that balance, only his banishment seems to have created us so what does that mean for our lifes?

Also Elidibus himself always go around and talk about balance, yet he took the WoD out of their world, lied to them and tried to let them create another calamity. Yet when the WoD decided to screw that plan and just kill us, he never stepped into that..and our death as the last beacon of Light would have been devasting for Hydaelyn..thats far away from balance imo. Also for someone that seemingly has all the informations he surely does not talk about it.

Another point about Light and Darkness. I honestly dont understand the concept of it. Seemingly if we look at the history and actions of FF14, Light seems to be the good side. The WoD created a flood of Light by being too good at their job and since they are similiar to us they must have defeated bad guys a lot. Our WoL also does a lot of good deeds and tries to get rid of the bad things that plague the realm. Thus WoL and WoD who are on the light side are being good. The Ascians that are representing the Darkness are trying to destroy everything. They rule in the shadows and start lots of conflicts in the worlds and hope for a calamity. That one female Ascians overdid that and caused a Flood of Darkness (seemingly also because they did not have great WoL). So again it looks like the Ascians are bad or doing evil things. So it feels hard to not believe that Light = Good and Darkness = Bad..thus its hard to understand how doing too much good would be bad..

Yet we also know from the game and certain jobs that you can use the Light and Darkness for good and bad things..so here they are not strictly seen as either.

Next to that confusion I just kinda wonder if its really that bad to have too much light because Hydaelyn was able to save the realm of the WoD by taking the light back. What should stop her from ever doing that again if it happens in other realms? But her saving that world also begs the question of how the realm is now save even though nothing was changed in it..shouldnt it be flooded soon again? Or did she magically create more Darkness by simply taking a lot of Light with her? And again if that happens, wouldnt that be the best solution in the end? Just have her swoop in and take the Light away if its too much after we defeated the Ascians and Zodiark? And since we are mortal we wont live forever thus our good deeds will come to an end somewhere..and if we are gone she just need to not create another WoL thus no excessive light but also no calamities and Ascians too. A balance you might say.

As you see from my wall of text, I have a big problem with understanding this concept in FF14 and how it really makes sense..and honestly I really hope that this wont end in the "you played right in his hand", "all your good deeds help the evil all along", "lets kill both crystals for reasons...even though we only exist thanks to her".

Maybe someone can enlighten me on this one..or maybe I am not that wrong with my assumptions? Would be great to know, especially since the german version too seems to hint at it being good and bad again..

Edit:

We can always conveniently focus discussion on the "recent years", in the knowledge that if you go even as far back as a 100 (really, no need to do so for Ishgard), it'll shatter the delusion that the city-states are much better.

Well yes if you use current deeds as arguments (which should be a huge part of it because its always the current government that shapes the future) you should also only use the current deeds for other nations too, otherwise it will get quite unfair. And in my argument you will only find current deeds. And none of the city states of Eorzea have such deeds in the recent years. They are not morally white either but far from the point that the other state has..(And its not like Garlemald was some nice nation in the past either so its not getting better if we take some years back ) But anyways..its getting a bit off topic and both sides have said their thing. Hopefully someone can point out the balance problem for Light and Darkness for me..

[Lauront]

We can always conveniently focus discussion on the "recent years", in the knowledge that if you go even as far back as a 100 (really, no need to do so for Ishgard, as the present will suffice), it'll shatter the delusion that the city-states are much better. Even Doma, if Yotsuyu's tale is any indication, was not a nice place to live at all.

As for the desirability of a balance of darkness/light, it is obvious why it is a very real thing and desirable. The Void formed from an imbalance of Darkness gaining a foothold. This rendered the world ineligible for a rejoining and ultimately devastated it, starving it of aether. The world Arbert hails from suffers from an imbalance of Light, which is searing it, as he stated; he could not be clearer. Could this all be a lie? I doubt it, and Elidibus lays out his cards as to why the Ascians do not see a benefit in it. They very much do want their master to be restored to his full power but as a means of getting there, inundating worlds in darkness apparently does not work to their favour. Otherwise, why would Igeyorhm be punished for her actions and subordinated to Lahabrea?

The difference between a "not-so-good" and "great" WoL is how much aid Hydaelyn lends them and, secondarily, how they put it to use. Hydaelyn lent an awful lot of aid to our WoL, before they became "great", particularly in the Praetorium. That battle would've gone badly against us otherwise.

Well yes if you use current deeds as arguments (which should be a huge part of it because its always the current government that shapes the future) you should also only use the current deeds for other nations too, otherwise it will get quite unfair. And in my argument you will only find current deeds. And none of the city states of Eorzea have such deeds in the recent years. They are not morally white either but far from the point that the other state has..(And its not like Garlemald was some nice nation in the past either so its not getting better if we take some years back ) But anyways..its getting a bit off topic and both sides have said their thing. Hopefully someone can point out the balance problem for Light and Darkness for me..

Really now? Because the Dragonsong War seems to be pretty close in terms of how bad it is.

[Alleo]

As for the desirability of a balance of darkness/light, it is obvious why it is a very real thing and desirable. The Void formed from an imbalance of Darkness gaining a foothold. This rendered the world ineligible for a rejoining and ultimately devastated it, starving it of aether. The world Arbert hails from suffers from an imbalance of Light, which is searing it, as he stated; he could not be clearer. Could this all be a lie? I doubt it, and Elidibus lays out his cards as to why the Ascians do not see a benefit in it. They very much do want their master to be restored to his full power but as a means of getting there, inundating worlds in darkness apparently does not work to their favour. Otherwise, why would Igeyorhm be punished for her actions and subordinated to Lahabrea?

The difference between a "not-so-good" and "great" WoL is how much aid Hydaelyn lends them and, secondarily, how they put it to use. Hydaelyn lent an awful lot of aid to our WoL, before they became "great", particularly in the Praetorium. That battle would've gone badly against us otherwise.

Hydaelyn only helped us against Ultima with a shield the rest was done with our power. And even with her weakened state afterwards (she could not even talk to us anymore, which shows that the balance is not tipped towards the light) we still were quite powerful on our own. Other than this one part, where did she truly really helped us?

My problem is still the understanding how you can create too much light. Did the WoD and the people in that shard just really defeat every single bad thing in the world and at the same time somehow no bad human existed either? How can you see that there is too much light? Is there a forewarning? Also why should we care about this if Hydaelyn can just swoop in and take the light back to her? I mean if Zodiark was free he could have probably got the Darkness back too. (But I do believe that he would not have done that because he seemingly does not care much for life)

It really would have been nice to get more informations from the WoD...maybe even a few echo visions of their battles and how their world looked right now. Maybe that would have helped me with a better understanding.