We Really Need To Talk About The State And Path Of FFXIV

[Stanelis]

basic video game corporate BS stuff to explain underwhelming game design to gullible players

a) It is perfectly fine for players to move along once content is completed. In order to make players partake in the content again, replayability must be implemented and relied upon. Granted it is hard but it is the job of the game designer to make the game interesting enough on a gameplay standpoint (it is something SE is really bad at).

b) the "best" combination must vary depending on the type of encounter. Granted, SE would have to stop making basically the same encounter each fight, merely reskinned, and actually find a way for players to interact with the monster that isn't damage. HEre again it isn't easy but SE managed to do it in their older games. They'd also have to start designing actual classes rather than endless reskins of the same role (eg classes that do actually the same thing but with different graphics and abilities).

c) Please, this type of content suffer from the same design issues.Quests aren't the strong point of FFXIV on a gameplay standpoint.

d) As already stated, FFXIv must stray away from the easy hamster wheel/rat race design and come to rely more on the intrisic gameplay value of its content rather than on the artificial reward structure (see a))

e) call it nostalgia, but it is known the final fantasy saga was at is apex during FFX.

f) everything isn't all bad in FFXIV (mostly, the graphics are good) but one can only guess how long it will last. Especially when the figure shows a slow but a steady decrease over the years. Never have the players been so bored with FFXIV than they currently are, and they start to stop believing the corporate "please look forward to it" bs.

Edit: Here's a link comparing WoW with FFXIV https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...,%2Fm%2F021dvx

Seems that WoW also has the same spikes when new expacs come. Additionally, seems that WoW is favorite everywhere but JPN, which tbh surprises nobody.

Wow has never been released in japan and indeed blizzard made the same mistakes as SE (and SE actually followed blizzard on that design). Plus the wow figure clearly shows the game used to be even more popular as it is today when it used to be designed as a RPG.

[Dualgunner]

Plus the wow figure clearly shows the game used to be even more popular as it is today when it used to be designed as a RPG.

Doesn't this argument fall apart because WoW is based off of Warcraft, which is an RTS?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

a) It is perfectly fine for players to move along once content is completed. In order to make players partake in the content again, replayability must be implemented and relied upon. Granted it is hard but it is the job of the game designer to make the game interesting enough on a gameplay standpoint (it is something SE is really bad at).

You simply aren't going to get people repeating the same content without some measure of rewards for doing so, regardless of how well it's designed. They'll inevitably grow bored. In a single player game, which you keep alluding towards, this works because they have no financial motivation beyond your initial purchase. MMOs are trying to retain a monthly sub. They don't want you leaving, but can't develop content fast enough to keep up with how quickly people devour it. Hence why grind styled accomplishments exist.

b) the "best" combination must vary depending on the type of encounter. Granted, SE would have to stop making basically the same encounter each fight, merely reskinned, and actually find a way for players to interact with the monster that isn't damage. HEre again it isn't easy but SE managed to do it in their older games. They'd also have to start designing actual classes rather than endless reskins of the same role (eg classes that do actually the same thing but with different graphics and abilities).

There will still remain a "best" way to approach a given situation. If you add elemental weaknesses and make Black Mage the most consistent in dealing damage against said weakness, it immediately becomes the de facto caster teams want. If you make a boss weak to Piercing, DRG/BRD/MCH are now slotted as the best. Look at how many people bring 3-4 tanks into Rathalos. Why? They can shrug off his dives far better than DPS jobs can and laugh at the stack mechanic. In that sense, they're the best option, which vaults them into the "default" positions.

c) Please, this type of content suffer from the same design issues.Quests aren't the strong point of FFXIV on a gameplay standpoint.

Yes and no. FATEs and such do need a design overhaul, but they're typically ignored because:

1) The devs overused them to the point people became fed up.
2) They offer very little rewards, thus no incentive to bother.

d) As already stated, FFXIv must stray away from the easy hamster wheel/rat race design and come to rely more on the intrisic gameplay value of its content rather than on the artificial reward structure (see a))

And how do you accomplish that? How do you make Ridorana worth exploring outside of your first time? Twenty three people aren't going to wait around while you look at the map and check every little room. In fact, look at what happened in Rabanastre with the little notes underwater. People started getting annoyed or outright pulled the bosses because they didn't care to wait. If you force them to, well, you get the mess that has been Praetorium and Castrum, where the devs practically had to throw massive tome rewards just to get people into the MSQ roulette. While you may look at Ridorana and want to explore every little nook and cranny, a good number of people aren't going to care. They want to kill the bosses and collect their loot.

e) call it nostalgia, but it is known the final fantasy saga was at is apex during FFX.

A single player game, among my favourites of all time, actually. Nevertheless, it could do things a multiplayer game cannot because it isn't dependent on anyone else except the one person it's trying to entertain. You can take your time exploring, messing around with strange builds that are nowhere near good or any number of things because it's only your time being used. I used to spend hours upon hours playing Blitzball simply because I liked it. (No, Yoshida, that isn't an endorsement.) If you attempt an unorthodox build in a multiplayer game, well, you're likely playing something inferior which hinders group progression. Now if everyone else is cool with that, have at it. I, personally, wouldn't be too pleased because your fun is wasting my time. There's a reason people get uppity about healer DPS and tank stance, after all.

f) everything isn't all bad in FFXIV (mostly, the graphics are good) but one can only guess how long it will last. Especially when the figure shows a slow but a steady decrease over the years. Never have the players been so bored with FFXIV than they currently are, and they start to stop believing the corporate "please look forward to it" bs.

And nothing you suggested will change that. Sure, people may be excited to spec DRG a certain way at first, but the novelty will inevitably wane once superior builds are discovered. People are bored because the content hasn't been up to par and very little has changed. Presently, we have them throwing huge amounts of money towards an old school design no one really cares for nowadays. Meanwhile, people have been clamoring for Mythic+ styled content for years. WoW hasn't changed its core systems in over a decade, but has tried different ideas in addition to them. FFXIV doesn't. The main issue with the latter is they play everything safe; relying entirely on a formula. That model works... if combined with different ideas that feel fresh ala WoW. You don't have to overhaul everything.

[Stanelis]

Uninspired reply by someone who lacks vision and is unable to grasp that alternatives exist to the current boring and underwhelming game design of FFXIV

a) Yes you can. People have been playing some games for decades and even centuries now. As an example, chess does exist since 1200 after JC. Also, even today, people play old school video games that were very well designed, despite not having any "rewards".


b) As already stated in my previous post, there must be various situations with various ways to tackle it. Because there is only basically only one gameplay situation in the current FFXIV, there can only be one matched solution (eg homogeneized classes). But it is a misconception to assume alternatives aren't possible, especially by making the game less battle centric than what current FFXIV is.

c) Fates have always been terrible in FFXIV and the only reasons people used to do it were xp and atmas, but it support what I m basically saying : in FFXIV, nobody would do anything if there weren't any reward because the gameplay is lacking. Would you see people in pagos if there weren't any rewards ? No you won't, and that's why there is a problem.

d) there are several ways to do that, by making daily quests asking you to find one particular monster accros the lighthouse, by making the lighthouse some sort of places where players would have to complete various quests, etc. There would be endless ways to accomplish that, ways that used to exist in games such as FFXI, FFXII, everquest or more broadly tabletop RPGs. And regarding your concern about the so called "time efficiency" of exploration, it could be easily solved by getting rid of that "hamster wheel" reward structure.

e) FFX is indeed a single player games, but FFXI isn't. And FFXI is built upon a very strong battle system, gameplay wise. It would have been possible to make a game like FFXI without all the associated timesinks that were implemented in order to artificially make the players subscribe. As an example, the depth of the group centric battle system can be preserved with the trust system, that allows players to progress as if they were in a group but without having to wait hours to find one.

f) there are no such thing as "old school" or "modern" design when it comes to game design. It is a forgery coming from the PR teams of blizzard when they started to decide game design was overrated (but it did eventually backfire, and hard). Furthermore, I didn't suggest anything, as it is pointless to give any ideas here because SE doesn't give a damn.

Doesn't this argument fall apart because WoW is based off of Warcraft, which is an RTS?

When did we talk about warcraft ? WoW used to be a RPG back in 2004 (my figure doesn't cover the lifespan of the warcrafts RTS).

[Dualgunner]

When did we talk about warcraft ? WoW used to be a RPG back in 2004 (my figure doesn't cover the lifespan of the warcrafts RTS).

About when I brought it up. You didn't disqualify the RTSes that it was based on until just now.

Are you saying that WoW was not always an MMO? Or are you saying it used to be an MMORPG in 2004, and it's no longer an MMORPG?

[Stanelis]

About when I brought it up. You didn't disqualify the RTSes that it was based on until just now.

Are you saying that WoW was not always an MMO? Or are you saying it used to be an MMORPG in 2004, and it's no longer an MMORPG?

I still don't understand why you're talking about the RTS. They were never intended to be RPGs. The only link between wow and warcraft is the lore.

What I m saying is that wow used to be designed as a RPG before WOTLK, then blizzard tried to make a pseudo action game out of it that only make a few players happy, then came back to RPG since legion.

[Dualgunner]

I still don't understand why you're talking about the RTS. They were never intended to be RPGs. The only link between wow and warcraft is the lore.

Well, read my post and maybe you'll understand. Your goal posts didn't shift until the post after I brought up Warcraft being an RTS. I'm not as precognisant as I may seem.

What I m saying is that wow used to be designed as a RPG before WOTLK, then blizzard tried to make a pseudo action game out of it that only make a few players happy, then came back to RPG since legion.

So by your logic, if it came back to RPG in Legion, it would have spiked in popularity using this hilariously bad metric of googles over time.

But it doesn't.

https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...0of%20Warcraft

[Stanelis]

Well, read my post and maybe you'll understand. Your goal posts didn't shift until the post after I brought up Warcraft being an RTS. I'm not as precognisant as I may seem.


So by your logic, if it came back to RPG in Legion, it would have spiked in popularity using this hilariously bad metric of googles over time.

But it doesn't.

https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...0of%20Warcraft

If blizzard had kept designing wow like it used to be in wod, nobody would be playing the game today. They saved the game with legion. Please do not forget wow in a 16 years old game, so it is natural that the playerbase would be declining. The fact that a 16 years old game is still the most popular MMORPG out there and one of the most watched game on twitch should tell you something.

And even by reading your post I don't understand why you talked about the RTS. Wow was never meant to replace warcraft, it is simply a different sort of game, but it never did pretend to be a RTS.

You know...every time you change the quote of the person you are responding to to something snarky and passive aggressive you basically already lost the argument before your post even gets to your points.

Honestly I m tired of seeing people tossing around over a decade of bad PR explanations that blizzard came up with, without exercising critical analysis about what they are talking about while thinking they are the one who came up with the idea. And honestly I m not even trying to win anything there, I m just tossing my displeasure about the game as a customer.

[Miste]

Uninspired reply by someone who lacks vision and is unable to grasp that alternatives exist to the current boring and underwhelming game design of FFXIV

You know...every time you change the quote of the person you are responding to to something snarky and passive aggressive you basically already lost the argument before your post even gets to your points.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

a) Yes you can. People have been playing some games for decades and even centuries now. As an example, chess does exist since 1200 after JC. Also, even today, people play old school video games that were very well designed, despite not having any "rewards".

You do realize Chess is a complete different game? Can we stop with these asinine apple to orange comparisons. If my "vision" is so uninspired, why can't yours actually provide examples from the genre we're playing in rather than making pointless strawmen?

b) As already stated in my previous post, there must be various situations with various ways to tackle it. Because there is only basically only one gameplay situation in the current FFXIV, there can only be one matched solution (eg homogeneized classes). But it is a misconception to assume alternatives aren't possible, especially by making the game less battle centric than what current FFXIV is.

Care to posit a few? You have sprouted plenty of hot air but I see nothing tangible except "FFXIV is boring. Change it to what I'd like!" Furthermore, I have never said an alternative approach didn't exist. I merely criticised your ideas. And I'll criticise another seeing you mention gameplay. Focusing less on battle content will inevitably drive away people who came to FFXIV for it. Considering virtually all successful MMOs rely on combat as their core feature, I sincerely doubt reducing it will have positive results. Unless you wanted FFXIV: The Sims.

c) Fates have always been terrible in FFXIV and the only reasons people used to do it were xp and atmas, but it support what I m basically saying : in FFXIV, nobody would do anything if there weren't any reward because the gameplay is lacking. Would you see people in pagos if there weren't any rewards ? No you won't, and that's why there is a problem.

And you don't think people play games to achieve something. To borrow your Chess example earlier, the "reward" is beating your opponent. If FFXIV made a decent PvP system in lieu of gimmick garbage, they may have something worthwhile. You cite Pagos yet ignore the chief complaints. People aren't saying "less battle content!" They want more varied objectives—many of which include killing things. Quests, leves, hunting log and frequent NM spawns. FATEs are considered boring because FFXIV's combat itself is basic at its core. Once you incorporate mechanic, that's where it begins to shine. Unfortunately, the devs have focused less on those and aren't innovating the way they ought to. Curiously, the most popular request from players is Mythic+ styled dungeons. Funny, that's battle centric. It's almost like people want good battle centric content not less altogether.

d) there are several ways to do that, by making daily quests asking you to find one particular monster accros the lighthouse, by making the lighthouse some sort of places where players would have to complete various quests, etc. There would be endless ways to accomplish that, ways that used to exist in games such as FFXI, FFXII, everquest or more broadly tabletop RPGs. And regarding your concern about the so called "time efficiency" of exploration, it could be easily solved by getting rid of that "hamster wheel" reward structure.

And then people have no reason to touch it. Putting quests to find a specific monsters with nothing but the "fun of exploration" isn't going to work. Look no further than Diadem. The whole concept was designed around an area we could explore. No one cared to. Removing the "hamster wheel" isn't going to make them care. It will simply have them quit. Quests are all well and good, but they lack longevity. Once you complete a quest, it's over. A MMO requires content to last months. None of your suggestions take this into account. Likewise, you once again assume it would have a huge turn around on entertainment. If so, why has Perform fallen out of favor? Here you have something purely roleplay driven. No rewards, just a side activity you can partake in at your leisure. And it's less popular than Ultimate.

e) FFX is indeed a single player games, but FFXI isn't. And FFXI is built upon a very strong battle system, gameplay wise. It would have been possible to make a game like FFXI without all the associated timesinks that were implemented in order to artificially make the players subscribe. As an example, the depth of the group centric battle system can be preserved with the trust system, that allows players to progress as if they were in a group but without having to wait hours to find one.

No, it wouldn't. FFXI existed over fifteen years ago. That style of gameplay has long been considered archaic, so much so even SE themselves shifted towards more action oriented gameplay since. At its basic core, FFXI was an extremely grind heavy MMO, and coincidentally boasted less active players than FFXIV does currently at its peak. FFXIV is hardly without flaws, but turning it into FFXI won't accomplish anything except a further disgruntled playerbase. We've been how people respond to grind heavy content. And your example essentially describes Duty Finder except the hassle of trying to find people on my server has been removed.

f) there are no such thing as "old school" or "modern" design when it comes to game design. It is a forgery coming from the PR teams of blizzard when they started to decide game design was overrated (but it did eventually backfire, and hard). Furthermore, I didn't suggest anything, as it is pointless to give any ideas here because SE doesn't give a damn.

That is flat out false. If it weren't, games wouldn't move away or entirely abandon systems which worked in the past. For example, Halo revolutionized the matchmaking system to such an extent, it's tantamount to career suicide if you were release a competitive FPS without some variation of it. You see this in all forms of media, be it sports, video games or film. What worked several years prior won't necessary capture audiences the same way it once did. Blizzard's mistake is they went too far away from their core design—something you ironically are advocating SE do with FFXIV. WoW's two recent expansions, Legion and BoA have both been incredibly well received despite being "modernized." They kept what worked and innovated.

And by the way, WoW is practically all battle centric. Seems to be working quite well for them.