We Really Need To Talk About The State And Path Of FFXIV

[Sigma-Astra]

Okay really? I'm suppose to take "This also isn't Runescape, this is XIV" literally then? You literally thought I had no idea that FFXIV wasn't Runescape and you felt the need to remind me? I'm not putting words in your mouth, you literally explained to me that XIV is not Runescape.
Comparing apples to oranges? WHAT'S WRONG WITH COMPARING APPLES TO ORANGES? Who said you can't compare fruit? So an apple is not an orange, what a brilliant observation! Thank you for reminding me. And I say it is a good point to compare something that is different from something else.

....You completely and utterly missed the entire point of that phrase. Congrats, you just proved that you have no substance whatsoever within this argument nor any comprehension of the idiom as it stands.

[Mahrze]

Okay really? I'm suppose to take "This also isn't Runescape, this is XIV" literally then? You literally thought I had no idea that FFXIV wasn't Runescape and you felt the need to remind me? I'm not putting words in your mouth, you literally explained to me that XIV is not Runescape.
Comparing apples to oranges? WHAT'S WRONG WITH COMPARING APPLES TO ORANGES? Who said you can't compare fruit? So an apple is not an orange, what a brilliant observation! Thank you for reminding me. And I say it is a good point to compare something that is different from something else.

Someone's blood pressure is rising.

People enjoy difficulty things in video games for their own sake. People play Legendary difficulty on Halo without any promise of better gear. In Halo Reach, all the armor that's unlocked is 100% cosmetic (yes I know Halo Reach is not an MMO). This happens in almost all other genres of video games, where players seek out the harder difficulties. The devs didn't need to bribe the players to keep playing the hard content. MMOs are an aberration in this way, the result of trying to copy WoW. That hard content raid gear would be worth a lot of gil on the marketboard, especially if only a few players are willing to do it, and there will always be a demand for it, even if it has the same gear rating as other sets.

While I understand the idea you're trying to convey, the issue is that incentives are needed in plenty of content for it to be done. Add to it how this game has so much content gated on a vertical progression line, that adding content with no reward is DOA.

Your faux pas is reasoning that this is unnecessary or that hard content will be done irrespective. You're not necessarily wrong but adding incentives is one thing that at times revives content or bring something fresh to a market.

If MMOs are an aberration then you have grossly misstepped into the wild lands. FFXIV is as MMO as it can get.

[Miste]

Comparing apples to oranges? WHAT'S WRONG WITH COMPARING APPLES TO ORANGES? Who said you can't compare fruit? So an apple is not an orange, what a brilliant observation! Thank you for reminding me.

I mean, fine? Compare Apples to Oranges if you feel this absolute need to, but they are fundamentally very different as you move down the classification chain into more specific features.

The real problem occurs when you try to change an Apple into an Orange...they are so different at the core that you are basically breaking both to try to change one into the other. Just like your ideas would break the balance of this game if they simply implemented it without changing the core of the game first.

If you do manage to completely overhaul an Apple and change it into an Orange then all the people who paid for Apples are simply going to leave, just like your example of when Runescape tried to change the core of its gameplay. You would just be doing the exact same thing to FFXIV.

Sure, some people who love Oranges might show up, but how many would that be? Just you? I haven't really seen anyone else ask for this game to be like Runescape. You really think they would change the core of the game for a minority and risk driving away the majority?

[Stanelis]

The main issue with FFXIV is that it is lacking so much in term of depths that it relies too much on the "rewards" to make the players do anything. Except that more often than not the rewards are also underwhelming and replaced too quickly.

FFXIV really needs to become a RPG, as Square used to know how to design a decade ago (and that doesn't imply anything would need hours of waiting/grind to get things done). First a relevant battle system must be designed, one in which players must make choices amongst different abilities rather than one relying merely on a predetermined cycle that never changes between encounter. Then, the structure of the content must be changed in order not to really that heavily on the duty finder (I have no issues with the duty finder, but it is currently literally the whole game, and it is wrong because that way the content isn't well tied to the open world, it kills immersion). Furthermore, the games really needs to get rid of that dungeon corridor and monster in a box that must be completed hundreds of times for "rewards" structure and provide more open environments, where the omega isn't merely to fight a mob and get a token as fast as one can possibly can.

Stuff like the ridorana lighthouse is particularly depressing in that regard. You have a massive structure that literally beg the developers to build explorable environments inside. But no, SE chooses to make a corridor with like 4 bosses. I honestly don't know how they manage to do something so boring out of such an interesting setting. By itself it is an impressive feat.

I mean, there is so much that could be done, that wouldn't cost much and that were actually implemented in the old square RPGs, to improve the game.

Sure, some people who love Oranges might show up, but how many would that be? Just you? I haven't really seen anyone else ask for this game to be like Runescape. You really think they would change the core of the game for a minority and risk driving away the majority?

No need to make runescape but lets face it : FF popularity is quickly decreasing :

https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...q=%2Fm%2F02ywx

That may have something to do with how SE tries very hard to reinvent the wheel to cater to a playerbase who doesn't like RPGs, that wasn't originally the one who bought FF games. Making RPGs for people who don't like RPGs must be very hard, yet that's something SE is trying to do. Even blizzard came to understand that it was stupid, and WoW's playerbase started to rise again as soon as they corrected the changes they made to make the game cater to anyone.

[Mahrze]

The main issue with FFXIV is that it is lacking so much in term of depths that it relies too much on the "rewards" to make the players do anything. Except that more often than not the rewards are also underwhelming and replaced too quickly.

There seems to be this mindset that "content without rewards" is a functional thing: Why would anyone do it, even in old SE rpgs as you reminisce below did you find something to grind.

FFXIV really needs to become a RPG, as Square used to know how to design a decade ago (and that doesn't imply anything would need hours of waiting/grind to get things done). First a relevant battle system must be designed, one in which players must make choices amongst different abilities rather than one relying merely on a predetermined cycle that never changes between encounter.

Then, the community would obviously find the "best" combination of abilities or chain of abilities and we're back to square 1.

Then, the structure of the content must be changed in order not to really that heavily on the duty finder (I have no issues with the duty finder, but it is currently literally the whole game, and it is wrong because that way the content isn't well tied to the open world, it kills immersion).

Hunts, FATEs and Beast-tribes say hi and we know how at least how Hunts are their own cesspool.

Furthermore, the games really needs to get rid of that dungeon corridor and monster in a box that must be completed hundreds of times for "rewards" structure and provide more open environments, where the omega isn't merely to fight a mob and get a token as fast as one can possibly can. Stuff like the ridorana lighthouse is particularly depressing in that regard. You have a massive structure that literally beg the developers to build explorable environments inside. But no, SE chooses to make a corridor with like 4 bosses. I honestly don't know how they manage to do something so boring out of such an interesting setting. By itself it is an impressive feat.

People will just work on the path that's easiest/more rewarding and we'd basically have a surplus of roads.

I mean, there is so much that could be done, that wouldn't cost much and that were actually implemented in the old square RPGs, to improve the game.

Good old nostalgia.

No need to make runescape but lets face it : FF popularity is quickly decreasing :

https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...q=%2Fm%2F02ywx

That may have something to do with how SE tries very hard to reinvent the wheel to cater to a playerbase who doesn't like RPGs, that wasn't originally the one who bought FF games. Making RPGs for people who don't like RPGs must be very hard, yet that's something SE is trying to do. Even blizzard came to understand that it was stupid, and WoW's playerbase started to rise again as soon as they corrected the changes they made to make the game cater to anyone.

https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...%2Fm%2F064ln09

Seems FFXIV is having the same predictable traffic every 2 years, when interest rises towards the expac, due to adverts and all. Not saying the game is great but you're breaking off a tangent of "old school" RPGs and for SE to "go back to their roots". And tbf, it won't work.

Edit: Here's a link comparing WoW with FFXIV https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...,%2Fm%2F021dvx

Seems that WoW also has the same spikes when new expacs come. Additionally, seems that WoW is favorite everywhere but JPN, which tbh surprises nobody.

[zuzu-bq]

Not just relying too much on rewards. Relying on them, while having a bad structure of effort vs reward.

Really good thread, good points risen. If anyone agrees that this discussion is strong even without agreeing with the OP as a whole should be sharing this.

[Stanelis]

basic video game corporate BS stuff to explain underwhelming game design to gullible players

a) It is perfectly fine for players to move along once content is completed. In order to make players partake in the content again, replayability must be implemented and relied upon. Granted it is hard but it is the job of the game designer to make the game interesting enough on a gameplay standpoint (it is something SE is really bad at).

b) the "best" combination must vary depending on the type of encounter. Granted, SE would have to stop making basically the same encounter each fight, merely reskinned, and actually find a way for players to interact with the monster that isn't damage. HEre again it isn't easy but SE managed to do it in their older games. They'd also have to start designing actual classes rather than endless reskins of the same role (eg classes that do actually the same thing but with different graphics and abilities).

c) Please, this type of content suffer from the same design issues.Quests aren't the strong point of FFXIV on a gameplay standpoint.

d) As already stated, FFXIv must stray away from the easy hamster wheel/rat race design and come to rely more on the intrisic gameplay value of its content rather than on the artificial reward structure (see a))

e) call it nostalgia, but it is known the final fantasy saga was at is apex during FFX.

f) everything isn't all bad in FFXIV (mostly, the graphics are good) but one can only guess how long it will last. Especially when the figure shows a slow but a steady decrease over the years. Never have the players been so bored with FFXIV than they currently are, and they start to stop believing the corporate "please look forward to it" bs.

Edit: Here's a link comparing WoW with FFXIV https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...,%2Fm%2F021dvx

Seems that WoW also has the same spikes when new expacs come. Additionally, seems that WoW is favorite everywhere but JPN, which tbh surprises nobody.

Wow has never been released in japan and indeed blizzard made the same mistakes as SE (and SE actually followed blizzard on that design). Plus the wow figure clearly shows the game used to be even more popular as it is today when it used to be designed as a RPG.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

People enjoy difficulty things in video games for their own sake. People play Legendary difficulty on Halo without any promise of better gear. In Halo Reach, all the armor that's unlocked is 100% cosmetic (yes I know Halo Reach is not an MMO). This happens in almost all other genres of video games, where players seek out the harder difficulties. The devs didn't need to bribe the players to keep playing the hard content. MMOs are an aberration in this way, the result of trying to copy WoW. That hard content raid gear would be worth a lot of gil on the marketboard, especially if only a few players are willing to do it, and there will always be a demand for it, even if it has the same gear rating as other sets.

And you know how often people played Legendary? Sparingly. Halo lived off its multiplayer component. All those games have one distinct difference you're forgetting. They aren't trying to maintain a monthly subscription. When I played Halo, the only subscription I paid was to Microsoft. Bungie had my $80 and never saw another dime. FFXIV, meanwhile, attempts to make content last for at least seven months. One of the main reasons Ultimate exists was SE trying to find a way for raiders to stop unsubbing in odd numbered patches. Speaking of, Ultimate is content purely for the challenge. Less than 1% clear it. People simply aren't going to do the same content continuously for months on end without a tangible reward. In fact, we'll likely see what happens when content dries up come 4.5. People stop playing. Now imagine that happening within the first month instead of 4-6 months in. You have yet to answer how FFXIV is supposed to keep people interested if everything can be obtained after one or two clears.

As for gear selling. It really wouldn't. Not only would that gear be undercut into oblivion, gil serves no purpose in this game except a self made score board. Regardless, what purpose does the other gear now serve? It's DoA because you can buy a better alternative out the gate, thus crafting gear has no use and no one queues for normal mode.

This is precisely why you don't compare between genres. FFXIV isn't Halo, GTA or anything else but a MMO. The closest comparison it has is WoW, which does things very similarly to FFXIV almost like they're both... MMOs.

[Dualgunner]

Plus the wow figure clearly shows the game used to be even more popular as it is today when it used to be designed as a RPG.

Doesn't this argument fall apart because WoW is based off of Warcraft, which is an RTS?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

a) It is perfectly fine for players to move along once content is completed. In order to make players partake in the content again, replayability must be implemented and relied upon. Granted it is hard but it is the job of the game designer to make the game interesting enough on a gameplay standpoint (it is something SE is really bad at).

You simply aren't going to get people repeating the same content without some measure of rewards for doing so, regardless of how well it's designed. They'll inevitably grow bored. In a single player game, which you keep alluding towards, this works because they have no financial motivation beyond your initial purchase. MMOs are trying to retain a monthly sub. They don't want you leaving, but can't develop content fast enough to keep up with how quickly people devour it. Hence why grind styled accomplishments exist.

b) the "best" combination must vary depending on the type of encounter. Granted, SE would have to stop making basically the same encounter each fight, merely reskinned, and actually find a way for players to interact with the monster that isn't damage. HEre again it isn't easy but SE managed to do it in their older games. They'd also have to start designing actual classes rather than endless reskins of the same role (eg classes that do actually the same thing but with different graphics and abilities).

There will still remain a "best" way to approach a given situation. If you add elemental weaknesses and make Black Mage the most consistent in dealing damage against said weakness, it immediately becomes the de facto caster teams want. If you make a boss weak to Piercing, DRG/BRD/MCH are now slotted as the best. Look at how many people bring 3-4 tanks into Rathalos. Why? They can shrug off his dives far better than DPS jobs can and laugh at the stack mechanic. In that sense, they're the best option, which vaults them into the "default" positions.

c) Please, this type of content suffer from the same design issues.Quests aren't the strong point of FFXIV on a gameplay standpoint.

Yes and no. FATEs and such do need a design overhaul, but they're typically ignored because:

1) The devs overused them to the point people became fed up.
2) They offer very little rewards, thus no incentive to bother.

d) As already stated, FFXIv must stray away from the easy hamster wheel/rat race design and come to rely more on the intrisic gameplay value of its content rather than on the artificial reward structure (see a))

And how do you accomplish that? How do you make Ridorana worth exploring outside of your first time? Twenty three people aren't going to wait around while you look at the map and check every little room. In fact, look at what happened in Rabanastre with the little notes underwater. People started getting annoyed or outright pulled the bosses because they didn't care to wait. If you force them to, well, you get the mess that has been Praetorium and Castrum, where the devs practically had to throw massive tome rewards just to get people into the MSQ roulette. While you may look at Ridorana and want to explore every little nook and cranny, a good number of people aren't going to care. They want to kill the bosses and collect their loot.

e) call it nostalgia, but it is known the final fantasy saga was at is apex during FFX.

A single player game, among my favourites of all time, actually. Nevertheless, it could do things a multiplayer game cannot because it isn't dependent on anyone else except the one person it's trying to entertain. You can take your time exploring, messing around with strange builds that are nowhere near good or any number of things because it's only your time being used. I used to spend hours upon hours playing Blitzball simply because I liked it. (No, Yoshida, that isn't an endorsement.) If you attempt an unorthodox build in a multiplayer game, well, you're likely playing something inferior which hinders group progression. Now if everyone else is cool with that, have at it. I, personally, wouldn't be too pleased because your fun is wasting my time. There's a reason people get uppity about healer DPS and tank stance, after all.

f) everything isn't all bad in FFXIV (mostly, the graphics are good) but one can only guess how long it will last. Especially when the figure shows a slow but a steady decrease over the years. Never have the players been so bored with FFXIV than they currently are, and they start to stop believing the corporate "please look forward to it" bs.

And nothing you suggested will change that. Sure, people may be excited to spec DRG a certain way at first, but the novelty will inevitably wane once superior builds are discovered. People are bored because the content hasn't been up to par and very little has changed. Presently, we have them throwing huge amounts of money towards an old school design no one really cares for nowadays. Meanwhile, people have been clamoring for Mythic+ styled content for years. WoW hasn't changed its core systems in over a decade, but has tried different ideas in addition to them. FFXIV doesn't. The main issue with the latter is they play everything safe; relying entirely on a formula. That model works... if combined with different ideas that feel fresh ala WoW. You don't have to overhaul everything.