Healers need other ways to contribute to party DPS instead of boring filler spells.

[HyoMinPark]

The thing is, it would fit dancer really well, yes.

But what if other healers had something with TP and each healer has a different effect with it?
Like i said, i wouldn't know WHAT sort of effect, but TP is pretty useless for healer so why not make them able to have abilities, that use TP
Or sacrifice TP if you want to call it so to give the team/1 person a cool little buff.

I’ve always thought having a “TP Shift” ability on a healer or caster would be nice to have, since the resource isn’t being used. Same for a Mana Shift-esque skill on physical DPS that never use their MP reserve (won’t work on BRD however—we use our MP!). May not be used that often though, because TP is usually a non-issue outside of extremely heavy AOE damage dealing. As for TP mechanics, I’m not sure if the developers would ever give all healers abilities that use TP—any TP usage on a healer would probably be more for a singular job concept (like DNC).

[Kurando]

I can't see anything wrong with Dancer being a hybrid-like stat job, in the same sense that PLD and DRK both use MP and TP consumption as part of their rotations (in comparison to WAR that is just all TP). Dancer could have some actions that work based on TP cost but could have half or slightly more skills that require MP instead. Perhaps an action would temporary change MP costs to TP costs, giving the job a nice window to recuperate MP outside of Refresh actions.

[Ceallach]

Offense is taken, not given, especially in text form where interpreting context is the reader's responsibility.

That's a fair point.

I assure you my intended tone was one of sarcasm. I had assumed that was clear based on the ridiculous preposition of purposely killing myself only to blame a healer. There is a difference between responding to a comment you see as stupid with sarcasm and calling people names. What I said to you may have ruffled your feathers but it also got my point across, what you said to me was just you being petty and insulting. There is a difference.

For the sake of you feeling like your opinion is respected I'll lose the sarcasm and see if you prefer this response.

You assert that the party dps contribution is somehow also the dps contribution of the healer(s) keeping them alive to do that dps.

By that train of thought anything anyone does that saves the life of another party member means the dps contributed by the rescued player is also dps contributed by their rescuer. After all this person would not be alive without the help of their ally.

So a PLD covering someone now is credited with the dps contribution of the recipient of that cover. A WAR using Shake it Off or a BRD popping Troubadour is also now credited with potentially 'keeping people alive'...

Do you see how convoluted this is? No one is ever able to take credit for someone else's contribution. We are all responsible for the numbers we put up. If as a healer you choose to ignore your healing responsibilities in favor of pumping out dps even if the entire party apart from you dies as long as you clear your numbers are still your own.

I'm not advocating for healers to prioritize their personal dps over the lives of their party members. Feel free to look at my logs - I clearly prioritize necessary healing over my own damage. Don't attempt to straw man me.

You tried to say that a dealer's dps contribution was related to the party members they keep alive. That is the issue here. Don't try to backpedal now, the quote is there. Whether you do 1k dps and do an amazing job keeping everyone alive or 1k dps and let people die left and right your personal damage remains the same. I'm not arguing those two people performed equally well, only that they have the same exact dps contribution.

As for ignoring dps for the sake of a weak party... get a better party.

First, let me apologize. Text-only conversation is difficult for anyone, but especially me, as I am serious-minded and assume in general that no one is joking. It gets easier with emoji and the game's emotes, as well as rapport and familiarity in general, but I don't have as much experience dealing with people as most people here. I'm sorry I took offense to you before. I was under the impression you were directly insulting me, so I responded in kind.

As to the current point, we agree that a healer should be willing to sacrifice personal DPS in favor of keeping others alive, as that is our primary function. We also agree that a healer can and should attack whenever able as long as it doesn't mean other party members are knocked out as a result.

That said, it is still true that a player with 1 or more HP does more DPS than a player with 0 HP, and that is the healers' responsibility. You seem to be putting more emphasis on a player's personal contributions, while I am trying to focus on the team effort as a whole. I would also argue that a tank contributes to party DPS by doing his job, which is to absorb damage without falling, which no other role can accomplish. By excelling at what you can do without taking unnecessary hits, no matter your role, you contribute to party DPS as a result. I think, for you, this doesn't necessarily click because you think of actions like Chain Stratagem and Battle Litany, which are direct DPS increases for the party, while I am looking at the cohesive strategy overall.

I think it's less worrying about credit and more worrying about doing your best with what you can do so others don't have to worry as much about things not under their control. Does that make sense?

[MoroMurasaki]

That's a fair point.



First, let me apologize. Text-only conversation is difficult for anyone, but especially me, as I am serious-minded and assume in general that no one is joking. It gets easier with emoji and the game's emotes, as well as rapport and familiarity in general, but I don't have as much experience dealing with people as most people here. I'm sorry I took offense to you before. I was under the impression you were directly insulting me, so I responded in kind.

As to the current point, we agree that a healer should be willing to sacrifice personal DPS in favor of keeping others alive, as that is our primary function. We also agree that a healer can and should attack whenever able as long as it doesn't mean other party members are knocked out as a result.

That said, it is still true that a player with 1 or more HP does more DPS than a player with 0 HP, and that is the healers' responsibility. You seem to be putting more emphasis on a player's personal contributions, while I am trying to focus on the team effort as a whole. I would also argue that a tank contributes to party DPS by doing his job, which is to absorb damage without falling, which no other role can accomplish. By excelling at what you can do without taking unnecessary hits, no matter your role, you contribute to party DPS as a result. I think, for you, this doesn't necessarily click because you think of actions like Chain Stratagem and Battle Litany, which are direct DPS increases for the party, while I am looking at the cohesive strategy overall.

I think it's less worrying about credit and more worrying about doing your best with what you can do so others don't have to worry as much about things not under their control. Does that make sense?

No harm, no fowl. The internet is a thorny place. I think our disconnect is what we consider contribution to party dps.

Personally I consider this to be primarily the damage done by each player. If a BRD does 5.4k then they contributed 5.4k dps to the party. I would extend this to buffs and debuffs as well, so I think it's fair to credit a NIN with the dps gained from Trick Attack or an AST for their card dps.

For me that is where things end in terms of personal contribution. A tank tanking or a healer healing is no more 'dps contribution' (in my eyes) than a party member of any role dodging AoE or performing mechanics correctly. I would say it's arguably more of an assist to craft someone raid food or pots than it is to keep them alive as a healer. This isn't meant to disparage what healers do (up until very recently I raided as WHM, I never thought of myself as unimportant) but merely to ascribe credit where credit is due.

To be blunt - I feel like a healer keeping people alive is not going 'above and beyond' in any way... it's generally the baseline. Same as a tank holding threat and using proper mitigation. There are clutch uses of these roles that might qualify for a gold star sticker (dps eats avoidable damage right before a raidwide aoe, WHM Tetras them to save their life or maybe PLD Covers them to the same end) but by and large if you're keeping people alive as a healer what you're doing is just not failing at your job. To me that isn't dps contribution - contributing dps is dps contribution.

I apologize for how wordy that was -_-; I hope it clarified my position well enough that you don't feel I'm disparaging tanks or healers, I just don't feel that they are deserving of any 'extra credit' for doing the job they signed up for.

[Ceallach]

No worries. Your points are thought out well.

For me, I guess it's less a matter of whether someone goes above and beyond the call of duty and more whether they're doing their jobs well enough so that victory is achieved and aren't necessarily idle. Like I've said before, I believe healers can and should use our attack spells when and where possible, but it takes a back seat to actually healing.

Using your reasoning, I could say a healer using Rescue to pull a DPS player out of an area attack so it doesn't knock out him/her would be a DPS gain. This doesn't mean the DPS should expect it (they should be trying to dodge after all), but if the DPS makes a wrong move geographically, backing himself/herself into a corner so he/she can't escape, Rescue would be a DPS gain for the same reason the Balance would be.

[Cassandaria]

While I agree with the OP, there is a problem with changing Healer DPS. While I feel that healers shouldn't be forced to, the fact of the matter is, most of this game is single player content with a slapdash amount of actual group content. If a healer can't pump out damage fast enough in the single player story stuff...they die, it's a battle of attrition at that point. Every game where you have to do some solo thing as a healer, has the healers capable of performing DPS at least acceptably well enough to get through your content.
I don't think I will ever appreciate being pushed to DPS as, frankly it isn't my job, but the adverse it true too, sitting there and doing nothing also contributes nothing. It's a difficult way, given we have no true support to change this. While adding in more debuff abilities would be fantastic to some of us, the expectation of pushing more on a plate when we are already stuck as 80% subpar DPS and 20% actual job you signed up for, is going to turn some players off even more. Healing others should be something you enjoy doing and if you can add DPS, that's wonderful, in fact, if you can and you don't, you are wasting your time. Sure the content doesn't NEED you to add that DPS, but it's not fair for others to have to push themselves and you not. If we want a pure healer role, everything needs to be restructured so that we never have to do single player content...or else we'll always have to waste our time slapping one button over and over and staring at the screen for damage to actually come in. I want more to do, I'd love to mitigate more, or lower enemy stats, that would thrill me, but it would have to come at the expense of what we need (whether we appreciate it or not) to get through single player content.

[Ceallach]

While I feel that healers shouldn't be forced to, the fact of the matter is, most of this game is single player content with a slapdash amount of actual group content.

This is why people preferred FINAL FANTASY XI.

[MoroMurasaki]

No worries. Your points are thought out well.

For me, I guess it's less a matter of whether someone goes above and beyond the call of duty and more whether they're doing their jobs well enough so that victory is achieved and aren't necessarily idle. Like I've said before, I believe healers can and should use our attack spells when and where possible, but it takes a back seat to actually healing.

Using your reasoning, I could say a healer using Rescue to pull a DPS player out of an area attack so it doesn't knock out him/her would be a DPS gain. This doesn't mean the DPS should expect it (they should be trying to dodge after all), but if the DPS makes a wrong move geographically, backing himself/herself into a corner so he/she can't escape, Rescue would be a DPS gain for the same reason the Balance would be.

I hate to get bogged down in semantics but since we seem to be talking amicably now (yay!) I figure there's no harm in engaging a bit more. Feel free to ignore me if you don't want to continue our train of thought.

I would say Rescue fits into both of our definitions of DPS increases with different uses, though admittedly I think it's more in line with your view than mine.

If a dps has backed themselves into a corner where death is imminent and they are saved by Rescue I see that as the same situation as my previous PLD cover scenario - the dps would die without intervention but since it's on everyone in the party to best ensure everyone else's survival the Rescue is within the healer's base responsibility.

I don't think dps should expect it or rely on it (for a myriad of reasons, chief among them that Rescue is just not very responsive in my experience) in the same way I don't think dps should expect or rely on a PLD to Cover them in that same scenario or a healer to save them with a clutch Tetra or shield of some kind. The fact that it's nice that we have the ability to help mitigate the mistakes of others is nice but I don't see it as something to be relied upon. The goal should be to not put yourself in that situation in the first place. Anything anyone else does to save you once you make a mistake is a kindness.

The other issue I see with the Rescue as a dps increase accredited to the healer is that Rescue can actually be used as a real dps increase. It's rather common for healers to slot Rescue to yank PLDs back into melee range for the sake of uptime. While this dps increase may be hard to measure (with variance based on essentially how many GCDs are gained and then also what those GCDs are spent on) it is a gain that might be lost by using Rescue to save a dps who has made a mistake.

I guess ultimately I just think attributing Rescue as a dps increase is too complicated. The variables are too plentiful. Can it be an increase? Surely, but it doesn't exist in a vacuum like a flat buff or debuff does.

[JK-Vulcan]

I started another thread but what about being able to enlist or summon elementals similar to what you see in the field in the shroud. They could cast a particular damage (ice, fire, water etc) and act like a companion as dps. This would also help with solo adventures so they don't take quite as long and aren't as boring.

[vVAstrAVv]

Isnt this why we have ast?