When should I drop tank stance?

[Aana]

This, pretty much.

For bosses, I start in Shield Oath, then Shield Lob -> Circle of Scorn -> Flash -> Aggro combo 2x -> Sword Oath + Rampart -> Goring Blade combo under Fight or Flight -> Royal Authority combo 2x.

This is what I try to do. Sometimes I only use one aggro combo. Sometimes I fumble things and start the Goring Blade combo too early. Oops.

I find that people almost never use their aggro tools. This keeps me ahead, and it is noticeable how much damage I do in Sword Oath. I do occasionally replace Royal Authority combos with Rage of Halone combos if I feel uneasy.

I also try to preempt add phases by switching back to Shield Oath before the adds spawn -- but I have successfully grabbed and held aggro in Sword Oath. I've also been unsuccessful, which is why I started trying to preempt things.

Assuming you are similar gear to your party, that is really overkill. Better safe than sorry though i suppose. The flash is unnessesary and just hurts your damage. Two aggro combos also should not be needed.

The aspect i feel a lot of people forget is that you need to do damage if you want to drop tank stance. You must be fluent in your tanks proper damage rotations. Every point of damage is enmity. The opener is just to get a lead and make up for your lower damage than a regular DPS. You start with a big lead and through the fight the other DPS should be slowly catching up once you drop tank stance because they do more damage than you. But the more damage YOU put out the longer it takes for them to catch you and the less aggro you need up front to ride out to the end of the fight. Also, more damage is shorter fights=less time for dps/healers to catch your enmity so your initial boost doesnt need to carry you as long.

Part of aggro management is learning to put up big numbers yourself. More damage you can do, the less aggro you need to fluff up your enmity bar up front. Tanks have pretty simple damage patterns compared to DPS. Work those into muscle memory so you dont let it slip during real fights and you can focus your active mind on the fight itself. Positioning, CDs, etc while the damage just pours out like water.

Sometimes the solution isnt to do more enmity combos, but to do more fell cleaves(insert class specific damage actions).

[Lynesse]

Assuming you are similar gear to your party, that is really overkill. Better safe than sorry though i suppose. The flash is unnessesary and just hurts your damage. Two aggro combos also should not be needed.

I'm experimenting with it, but I don't like to take chances. I'm leveling and learning -- and so are most of the people who would benefit from this thread -- I'm not playing the DPS race yet.

I'm not level synced and the healer and DPS typically are. It is not overkill. It's especially important during certain awkward leveling phases when our gear begins to fall off.

This keeps me marginally ahead of my WHM and DPS who front-load their damage and refuse to use Diversion. The Flash is for certain people/classes, like RDMs who Fleche + Contra Sixte immediately, or who have built up enough mana in the previous pull to open with their melee combo -> Fleche + Contra Sixte. The Flash will be especially necessary when I start getting RDMs with Verflare.

If everyone used their aggro tools, it wouldn't be such an issue. I haven't seen a single person use Diversion.

Your advice is idealistic, but it's not the most practical.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

It is overkill, usually pulling in shield with shield lob and one aggro combo, and use circle and spirits weaved through your aggro combo is more than enough, both will be back up under fof, after that it's on your healer and DPS to work with you if not...a few slaps from a boss should make them realise the importance of aggro mitigation

[Lynesse]

It is overkill, usually pulling in shield with shield lob and one aggro combo, and use circle and spirits weaved through your aggro combo is more than enough, both will be back up under fof, after that it's on your healer and DPS to work with you if not...a few slaps from a boss should make them realise the importance of aggro mitigation

We agree, then.

What you suggest is unreasonable, and your argument is built on assumptions. Aana's initial post said: "assuming you are similar[ly] gear[ed] to your party..." Aana assumed wrong.

RDM can front-load around one thousand potency before Savage Blade comes out. If the RDM outgears you and doesn't use Diversion, Flash is just the easiest answer. I use RDM as an example because it's the class I know, but any class with stacks has this problem because we tend to go through dungeons swiftly. It's just as problematic with Samurai and Monks.

It's immature to grief a player to "teach them a lesson" that they probably won't learn and will only blame you for. It's also a potentially greater DPS loss. I'm not going to do that with every player who doesn't use Diversion -- there are too many -- and I'm certainly not going to create unnecessary conflict because heaven forbid I Flash and do a second Rage of Halone combo.

The whole argument is silly. But I know now I won't need to go to such lengths later, which is good. I have learned something.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

You use the phrase "it's immature to grief a player", having no due regard to co-operative play with fellow party members i.e. not using diversion and or lucid dreaming and the like, appropriately, is a grief to a tank player seeking to improve in playing the role or further practice and maintain their level of play.

Sure it has been mentioned in other threads, plus with changes in 4.4 cross role, but this is part of the smaller aspect of synergies between the roles working together, and anyone failing in something as simple and basic as pressing an oGCD in my eyes is ignorance of fellow party members, and fault lies with their failure to press a button.

Where other players have used their skills and still get ahead due to skill or ilvl difference then sure of course do what a tank is supposed to do but the burden doesn't lie solely on the tank, like many aspects of the game, it's a party effort now.

[Lynesse]

snip.

I like you. I'm grateful that you understand.

I am getting really, really angry while tanking lately. Players not using their aggro tools, not using their AoE abilities, blowing everything they have on one target so that I lose aggro during an AoE pull and have to get it back. My girlfriend heals for me, and she prefers larger pulls. Our dungeon runs still go quickly and smoothly -- between 16-17 minutes or thereabouts.

We did a roulette today. I said at the start, "Use Diversion on bosses. C:" Then I realized the dungeon we had was Dusk Vigil. Haha.

But this DPS responded: "If you lose aggro when your only combo is Rage of Halone, then 'idk'."

Rude, but fair enough. It's the Dusk Vigil, after all.

I was annoyed by the attitude, but I let my performance in the dungeon speak for itself after that. No issues. Done quickly. My girlfriend is a great support.

At the end of the dungeon, I was still annoyed and decided to speak out: "Didn't realize what dungeon this was at first -- but if you can't use an oGCD that costs nothing, then idk." No response. I left.

This is the sort of stuff new tanks have to put up with.

To put this into perspective, this was the aggro list during the final boss of a Shisui:



The above was after Flash and two Rage of Halone combos before entering Sword Oath. WHM used Lucid. Boss was at 28% when I took this.



This is the very end of the first boss of another Shisui run. It was at 1% when I took this, and it died immediately after. I used one Rage of Halone combo before entering Sword Oath, no Flash. The DRG later in the dungeon said it had "been a while." If it were an experienced RDM, Samurai, Monk, etc. they would have easily overtaken me.

It's doubtful that a second Rage of Halone combo would prevent these people from ripping enmity from me.

If I'd been level 63 in nothing but Augmented Shire gear, I definitely would not have been able to keep aggro. This is repeating over and over in later dungeons and will continue to do so until I earn the Creation to gear myself up some.

That's all I'm really saying on the matter. It's tough out there, and I am not shy about Flashing because I don't want to give my girlfriend a heart attack, look dumb, cause her to overheal, cause the DPS to panic, etc. It doesn't make for a smooth run.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Unfortunately you will run into "not so supportive and helpful players" and will take a shot here and there, but mostly I've had average to good responses with players in dungeons and the odd one where my personal favourite impatient DPS come along -_-

But that aside, with Shisui and other SB levelling dungeons one key factor to remember is that it's a sad issue SE still have failed to address outside a band aid at 70 is the main stat issue for tanks, and ideally you should have 270 STR accessories levelling up till you hit 70, since you will be missing a large chunk of STR to deal with the increasing main stat of the DPS and healers, yes there was enmity modifiers changes to accommodate this but, still doesn't address the missing STR, using the VIT accessories from levelling dungeons.

But it becomes a non issue at 70, just a rough road from 60-70, and also with 4.4 around the corner it's a good time to try get some decent gear especially with mendacity unlocking, and new tombstone gear, you'll be geared up in no time which should address any issues on that front. Outside of gear it's just a matter of staying on top of your rotation and aggro management will become a walk in the park for the most part moving forward. ^^

[Claire_Pendragon]

This heavily reminds me of 2.0 Halatali as GLA/PLD.
People would argue "You must suck as GLA/PLD if your DPS can rip off hate from you."
Im like, there's literally only 2 options at this low of a level.
Threat combo, or flash.

No oGCDs to weave except FoF / mitigations.
No complex rotations or anything.

of course not every DPS could pull hate, but the best played DPS would build up more threat than a tank could generate on a boss fight. (of equal gear/skill)
The ONLY thing keeping me higher in threat, was if I got a full GCD off before them. (Sprinting and Shield lob.)
If there was a BRD who ranged or BLM who started casting as i ran up, then they held hate the entire fight, even with a voke prior to a FoF+savage blade in combo. (If they were geared and good)
Heck WHM could do even more DPS than everyone else at that level.
(Level 20 copperbell/halatali were poorly designed for tanks)

I had people argue with me "you must suck". Asked them to jump on their tank to prove me wrong. I jumped on WHM/BLM (mostly WHM), and every time, I proved them wrong by just spamming stone2 as WHM, and NOTHING ELSE. No cures, nothing. They would voke, and then the very next stone2 would pull hate back, and id be tanking till im either dead or the fight ends. (in the case of copperbell, no heals are needed until the last boss, so WHM can tank the 1st 2 bosses just fine. Last boss requires you to heal yourself between stone2s, and cures wont generate enough hate to overtake a tank.)

With the examples you gave above though, i havent done very much testing, but it might not have been possible for them to overtake you, even if they do get extremely close. (I did my extensive testing back in 2.0, and now i just dont care about what the limits are.)

the best and worst RDMs cant be that much different, due to how RDM is on the easy side of playing. When people told me what my DPS was as RDM in savage, the difference of 50 DPS would be a massive percentile difference, where as 50dps wouldnt be much of a difference to a MNK or SAM for example.
But then looking at the DRG/BRD, they dont really hit as hard as SAMs/BLMs, but they do compliment eachother. So I couldnt really say much in their case.

At Lv60 you do have more DPS options, so they do need to weave in threat reductions, but sometimes the threat meters are deceptive.

When I used to do A12S, the WHM of my group was solo healing, and would be right up my butt in threat. I had to do extra powerslash combos (our WAR didnt want to start the fight for extra threat, and we had no NIN) but after the add phase, no matter how close the WHM got in threat, he would never over take me, but it always looked like he was a hair from overtaking threat.

So its really hard to say based on threat meters.

[Lynesse]

Unfortunately you will run into "not so supportive and helpful players" and will take a shot here and there, but mostly I've had average to good responses with players in dungeons and the odd one where my personal favourite impatient DPS come along -_-

But that aside, with Shisui and other SB levelling dungeons one key factor to remember is that it's a sad issue SE still have failed to address outside a band aid at 70 is the main stat issue for tanks, and ideally you should have 270 STR accessories levelling up till you hit 70, since you will be missing a large chunk of STR to deal with the increasing main stat of the DPS and healers, yes there was enmity modifiers changes to accommodate this but, still doesn't address the missing STR, using the VIT accessories from levelling dungeons.

But it becomes a non issue at 70, just a rough road from 60-70, and also with 4.4 around the corner it's a good time to try get some decent gear especially with mendacity unlocking, and new tombstone gear, you'll be geared up in no time which should address any issues on that front. Outside of gear it's just a matter of staying on top of your rotation and aggro management will become a walk in the park for the most part moving forward. ^^

You, sir, have given the best advice in this thread: The 270 STR accessories. I was using VIT accessories. I knew tanks had used them, but I had no idea they helped that much.

Harhar. Finally, someone I can learn from. Very refreshing! C:

270 STR accessories make perfect sense. I wish I hadn't been so timid about getting them. I kept hearing people complain about tanks who used them at the start of SB, so it made me overly cautious.

snip

Thank you for the input. I've been playing RDM lately, and any tank I outgear has a huge amount of trouble keeping aggro, even when I use Diversion. Today in Kugane, with a tank still using some 290 pieces, I had to lead off with Diversion and use Lucid mid-way into the fight. Me and the other DPS ripped hate during normal pulls, too. I couldn't tell if the tank was doing anything wrong, but he was not the first tank I've had like this -- plenty of tanks in Skalla have had difficulty keeping aggro against me.

It's just the way it is. It's surprising. People said aggro was a team effort, and I didn't believe them until a week or so ago.

I always used Diversion, but I did so more out of etiquette than a true understanding of the system.

[Claire_Pendragon]

Thank you for the input. I've been playing RDM lately, and any tank I outgear has a huge amount of trouble keeping aggro, even when I use Diversion. Today in Kugane, with a tank still using some 290 pieces, I had to lead off with Diversion and use Lucid mid-way into the fight. Me and the other DPS ripped hate during normal pulls, too. I couldn't tell if the tank was doing anything wrong, but he was not the first tank I've had like this -- plenty of tanks in Skalla have had difficulty keeping aggro against me.

It's just the way it is. It's surprising. People said aggro was a team effort, and I didn't believe them until a week or so ago.

I always used Diversion, but I did so more out of etiquette than a true understanding of the system.

RDM is a bit unique atm, (BRD pretty much acted like RDM in the past, and BLM wasnt too far behind)
Most jobs have to "build up" to their DPS potential, just as all tanks have to "build up" to their 3rd GCD threat combo.

So RDM can front load a lot of damage, that can out threat a tank, in tank stance, if they land enough crits/Dhits in the 1st 2 GCDs.

But when it comes to trash mobs, RDM could be the weakest DPS in the group, and still pull hate from the tank, due to its ability to front load burst. (I remember BLMs/BRDs who would run ahead and pull, to be the 1st to attack mobs, to try and keep their DPS higher than everyone else, but still be the lowest DPS, because they focus too much on front loading, rather than doing the rotations right. A common left over from WoW, where hitting mobs 1st gets you a slight edge in higher total damage done, even if you're not actually doing more DPS. Just total damage done in the whole dungeon is semi increased.)

Diversion/lucid wont be up every fight, unless of course the groups total DPS is really low, then it would be up every fight.
So, sooner or later, you'll have you DPS CDs up, and no diversion/lucid, and the tank wont have theirs.

But on a single target boss scenario, you shouldnt over take an undergeared tank, unless they drop tank stance.
And even then, I always use lucid dream to get MP back, after giving up a massive chunk of it to the healer, who is usually going ham on their highest DPS spell, chunking away their MP. (And usually healing with their less MP efficient heal, in order to spend less GCDs healing, and more on nuking)

It doesnt take long to mana shift a healer in a boss fight, so there's VERY rare scenarios where I over take a tank as RDM after a diversion+lucid, and I can only chalk it up to the tank messing up a lot, as half the time its a well geared tank.

But honestly every expansion makes threat easier and easier to maintain as a tank. So if anything it wasnt so much "out of respect" prior, so much as it was darn required in 2.0.
But now its out of respect, or in savage its for maximum DPS. If a tank REALLY wants to hold hate, they can hold perfect hate UNLESS its a low level dungeon, they are on a "Class" instead of a job, and undergeared. (And RDM/SAM potencies are based on high level potencies, they didnt get scaled down for low levels, so they hit harder than any other DPS, and will give low level tanks a run for their money.) But holding hate by spamming threat combos is a DPS loss, and a DPS getting killed is a DPS loss, so the ideal is to minimize your own threat, as its not a DPS loss, where as maximizing a tanks threat is a DPS loss.

PS: To touch on what i said prior, me and my roomate both played BLM in 2.0
We both didnt have the threat reduction unlocked yet.

She refuses to use thunder 1-3, and I of course would use it.
She also didnt cancel her casts to do fire3 procs, while i did.

Because we ddint have threat reductions we could accurately see who was doing more DPS.
I would always be between 50%-100% more threat than her.

And yet, in bosses, she pulled off the tank far more than me, because she front loaded fires, where i started off with thunders, and the tank always took it back off her.
people would think she did more DPS but wondered how i managed to always be higher threat than her for most of the fight, except the starts.

The same thing pretty much happened in SB, as we both took up RDM. the exception being we both did use threat reductions, and i used mine more than her, and id STILL be massively ahead of her in threat, and yet she pulled threat more in 4man trash pulls, because she didnt try to pair threat reductions with contre sixte, and id try to wait till the 1st GCD AoE of the tank.

(I still pulled hate, as ill missjudge what a tanks going to do, as not all tanks do the same things in dungeons, but she did it more, while still doing less DPS)