We Really Need To Talk About The State And Path Of FFXIV

[Ilan]

You've brought up something I've never understood and it isn't just tied to FF XIV but all the MMOs I've played. Why do people get so upset that they can't get high level gear when they don't/won't run high level content? Due to my age I stick to normal or tourist level instanced combat. I just don't have the reflexes and response time to do savage, ultimate, mythic or whatever you want to call it stuff anymore. By the time I collect all of the gear in the content I run I out level it anyway so it isn't like I need the highest ilvl BiS stuff to complete the instances or wander around the open world. Maybe its my age but I just don't get the sour grapes.

It is not your age its your mind. You understand that you don't need that gear for running expert or whatnot, they don't.

[Magic-Mal]

It is not your age its your mind. You understand that you don't need that gear for running expert or whatnot, they don't.

All three of you don't seem to understand what I was trying to say. It's not about allowing players who don't even know how to use a Lv70 attack being able to have top level raider gear. It's about being able to have content that would give raid level gear or stronger without "raid", "raid", "raid", "raid". It's about having some content that actually gives something different from Lv1 versions of existing gear that and not immediately worthless that makes a difference. It's about the devs having the freedom to make content reward things without the raider world crashing.

Also, you seem to have this misguided perception that if someone doesn't like raids that they are confused for wanting stronger gear. Some players just want to feel stronger. Some players are who don't like raids right now. Some players are actually really good or even better than raiders but are casual. Don't confuse casual with being bad or lazy. I know many out there who are casual simply because they don't like raids and because of that, they are denied any sort of real progression.

As it stands now, raiders themselves don't have anything worth playing for after what 1 or 2 months? Especially not now since Ultimate is gone. Ultimate isn't a good example of extra content as a small percent of raiders even bother with it. And the clear rate for Ultimate in NA at least is like 0.1% based off the census. Ultimate is neat for the 100 people who do it but we need something broader.

[Ilan]

All three of you don't seem to understand what I was trying to say. It's not about allowing players who don't even know how to use a Lv70 attack being able to have top level raider gear. It's about being able to have content that would give raid level gear or stronger without "raid", "raid", "raid", "raid". It's about having some content that actually gives something different from Lv1 gear that and not immediately worthless that makes a difference.

Also, you seem to have this misguided perception that if someone doesn't like raids that they are confused for wanting stronger gear. Some players just want to feel stronger. Some players are who don't like raids right now. Some players are actually really good or even better than raiders but are casual. Don't confuse casual with being bad or lazy. I know many out there who are casual simply because they don't like raids and because of that, they are denied any sort of real progression.

First: Don't confuse casual with NOT raiding, thats a difference. There are enough "casuals" out there who are raiding. Which brings us to the next point: Everyone can raid and not to forget if you want that gear go and raid or wait until you can upgrade the tomb gear, not so hard isn't it?

You basically want that you get raid gear outside of raids which is not right. If you want it put in the effort. I have barely 1 class geared around 360. Do you see me complaining about not having 370? No because i know where to get it if i really want it but since i'm not interested in deltascape i just take everything besides "raid gear" and guess what its completly fine that way.

[Magic-Mal]

First: Don't confuse casual with NOT raiding, that is simply not true. There are enough "casuals" out there who are raiding. Which brings us to the next point: Everyone can raid and not to forget if you want that gear go and raid or wait until you can upgrade the tomb gear, not so hard isn't it?

You basically want that you get raid gear outside of raids which is not right. If you want it put in the effort.

I don't want raid gear. Is that clear? Keep your raid gear.

[Ilan]

I don't want raid gear. Is that clear? Keep your raid gear.

Then stop complaining about the fact that you get a bit better gear only in RAIDS because that is exactly what you are doing.

Sorry but i don't raid so there is no gear to keep.

[Nezerius]

Well after gordias/midas not even savage was for raiders only because the difficulty went down and down to a point where even

Gordias/Midas wasn't just for "raiders only", it was for hardcore raiders only. We had Coil before that, which was definitely not as difficult as Gordias/Midas, yet was still decently challenging.
Having a difficulty like Savage Second Coil would've been a good option for the hardcore raiders, but they complained about the lack of rewards from that version of Savage.

First: Don't confuse casual with NOT raiding, thats a difference. There are enough "casuals" out there who are raiding. Which brings us to the next point: Everyone can raid and not to forget if you want that gear go and raid or wait until you can upgrade the tomb gear, not so hard isn't it?

There are numerous definitions on the words "casual" and "hardcore", yours simply doesn't line up with Magic-Mal's definition of it.

You basically want that you get raid gear outside of raids which is not right. If you want it put in the effort. I have barely 1 class geared around 360. Do you see me complaining about not having 370? No because i know where to get it if i really want it but since i'm not interested in deltascape i just take everything besides "raid gear" and guess what its completly fine that way.

The raid-or-die (or perhaps in this case, raid-or-wait) mentality is what cripples the gear situation in XIV. Players are expected to raid to get the very best gear, or wait 3.5-4 months for the upgrade tokens from the Alliance raid.

You do know that it's possible to have challenging non-raid content that can reward raid-level gear, right? Just look at the Mythic+ dungeon system in WoW. In that system, the dungeon's difficulty scales with the level of the Keystone that's used to start the dungeon.

For example: A level 3 Keystone will increase the health and damage of all the trash mobs/bosses by 21%. Keystones also gain an affix at Level 4, 7 and 10, at a total of 3 affixes on a Level 10 Keystone. These affixes are dungeon-wide effects, like Raging (mobs enrage at 30% health, dealing 100% more damaging until they're killed) or Bolstering (mobs buff nearby enemies, increasing health/damage), among other options.

Finishing the dungeon in time upgrades the keystone by 1, 2 or 3 levels, depending on how fast the group is. Loot iLvl is based on the level of the Keystone. There's also a Mythic chest that contains a keystone + a guaranteed piece of gear with its iLvl based on the highest Mythic+ cleared during the previous week.

[Magic-Mal]

The raid-or-die (or perhaps in this case, raid-or-wait) mentality is what cripples the gear situation in XIV. Players are expected to raid to get the very best gear, or wait 3.5-4 months for the upgrade tokens from the Alliance raid.

You do know that it's possible to have challenging non-raid content that can reward raid-level gear, right? Just look at the Mythic+ dungeon system in WoW. In that system, the dungeon's difficulty scales with the level of the Keystone that's used to start the dungeon.

Thank youuuuuu. That is what I have been trying to get at.

[MoroMurasaki]

The raid-or-die (or perhaps in this case, raid-or-wait) mentality is what cripples the gear situation in XIV. Players are expected to raid to get the very best gear, or wait 3.5-4 months for the upgrade tokens from the Alliance raid.

You do know that it's possible to have challenging non-raid content that can reward raid-level gear, right?

If the content isn't significantly easier than current Savage it won't draw a much larger audience than Savage does now.

If the content is much easier than Savage it invalidates Savage as being the only way to acquire BiS while being much easier. Who cares about an i375 weapon from O8S if you can also pick one up by dungeoning? Might as well hit BiS before even starting Savage at that point.

If someone chooses not to do Savage that's perfectly fine but they then don't need to gear up as quickly (or honestly at all for quite some time) and they certainly don't deserve the same rewards as people putting in considerably more effort.

To put it bluntly - why does anyone not doing Savage feel like they need or deserve the same ilvl without delay as someone who is actually raiding? It just strikes me as super entitled. If you want the gear then do the content. If you don't that's fine too.

[Dualgunner]

The raid-or-die (or perhaps in this case, raid-or-wait) mentality is what cripples the gear situation in XIV. Players are expected to raid to get the very best gear, or wait 3.5-4 months for the upgrade tokens from the Alliance raid.

You do know that it's possible to have challenging non-raid content that can reward raid-level gear, right? Just look at the Mythic+ dungeon system in WoW. In that system, the dungeon's difficulty scales with the level of the Keystone that's used to start the dungeon.

Did anyone argue the point that non-raid content can be challenging? Problem is, in XIV, it isn't. I agree, a Mythic+ like system would be fun, and a great change of pace especially for those who can't find seven other people to commit time to the game with, but as it is, basically all the content outside of Savage (and to a lesser extent, EX) requires very little relative technical skill.

[Nezerius]

If the content isn't significantly easier than current Savage it won't draw a much larger audience than Savage does now.

If the content is much easier than Savage it invalidates Savage as being the only way to acquire BiS while being much easier. Who cares about an i375 weapon from O8S if you can also pick one up by dungeoning? Might as well hit BiS before even starting Savage at that point.

I'm guessing you've never heard of the Mythic+ system, or the massive success it was in Legion, to the point of being considered one of the best features that had been introduced in that expansion.

First of all, a dungeon with scaling difficult would already be more accessible to players, due to the simple fact of requiring half as many players (4 instead of 8). Second, the content wouldn't be "much easier than Savage", since you wouldn't be getting the raid-level gear until higher difficulty levels, that's kind of the point of the whole scaling difficulty thing.

If someone chooses not to do Savage that's perfectly fine but they then don't need to gear up as quickly (or honestly at all for quite some time) and they certainly don't deserve the same rewards as people putting in considerably more effort.

To put it bluntly - why does anyone not doing Savage feel like they need or deserve the same ilvl without delay as someone who is actually raiding? It just strikes me as super entitled. If you want the gear then do the content. If you don't that's fine too.

Short answer: Because players find it fun to progress in an MMO.

Long answer: Because there's literally no other option of similar difficulty that allows players to obtain gear above the stuff that can be easily grinded for (ie: facerolling dungeons for tomestones, buying crafted gear, gear from Alliance raids). Mythic+ is seen as an alternative to raiding, without the hassle of organizing a group of 10-30 players. It allows players who prefer tight-knit groups, or prefer to have their playtime be much less schedule based (ie: hopping on to do a mythic+ or two) to still progress at a decent pace.
To answer your blunt question, because there's isn't any non-raid content at similar difficulty level, it's literally the only option people have. This is the raid-or-die mentality that I was talking about. Add actual options of similar difficulty (like WoW did), and I wouldn't be surprised for people to show interest in said options, despite having chosen to not do savage raids.

Did anyone argue the point that non-raid content can be challenging? Problem is, in XIV, it isn't. I agree, a Mythic+ like system would be fun, and a great change of pace especially for those who can't find seven other people to commit time to the game with, but as it is, basically all the content outside of Savage (and to a lesser extent, EX) requires very little relative technical skill.

It's a direct reply to Ilan, specifically the part where they said "You basically want that you get raid gear outside of raids which is not right. If you want it put in the effort." as if people who don't raid are somehow incapable of putting in the effort of clearing difficult non-raid content.

But I agree with Ladon here. As we're reaching the fifth anniversary of ARR, it's becoming more and more apparent that SE isn't really all that interested in shaking things up, preferring the safe content cycle that they're currently working with.