Healers, thoughts on the dual DPS tanks?

[Ultima]

AHHHGGG!!! I hate when people say this! The numbers may LOOK different but a Warriors tank stance is MATHEMATICALLY EQUIVALENT to Grit and Shield Oath.

Except WAR's stance does not benefit from oGCD heals, but WAR is still the strongest boy that ever did strong and by god if you get in his way will you pay for it with your blood.

[Duskane]

If tank is keeping aggro ,managing CD well and healer isnt stressing out or a bit too inexperienced there shouldnt be a issue at 70 our stats are still good enough to tank ,Its not like our DPS stance worked like pre SB cleric stance.

I've seen War and Drk stay in just darkside/Deliverence entire dungeons.

[Megguido]

Except it literally does? It can be the difference between regen keeping them topped, and needing to stop DPSing to cure.

Except it doesn't ? If taking 20% less damage means healing 20% less, please explain how do you heal 20% less when a Cure II is already like 35% of a tank's HP ? It's not like you have a healer button to heal 20% less and gain 20% damage instead. The tank's HP will drop a little slower, but I'm not sure it'll buy you enough time to cast anything, and even if it would give you enough time for a damage GCD now and then, do you really think it would be worth more than 1k DPS lost due to tank stance ?

I can understand it lets Regen ticks be more efficient, but hey, you won't heal Guardian's autos with a Regen only for example.

Others said it already, tank stance isn't trash, it's a great tool during progression and for pulling, but losing at least 25% of your damage due to it is often not worth it (unless you can't survive without it because of bad gear or PUGs ?)

AHHHGGG!!! I hate when people say this! The numbers may LOOK different but a Warriors tank stance is MATHEMATICALLY EQUIVALENT to Grit and Shield Oath

Then your friend is kinda wrong. Sure, Defiance gives as much effective HP as Shield Oath (instead of more mitigation, it's more max HP). The exception being: the 25% healing boost only applies to healing spells, not healing abilities. Defiance doesn't boost Tetra, Asylum, Indomitability, Lustrate, Fey Union, Excogitation, Essential Dignity, Collective Unconscious, which are abilities healers want to prioritize over GCD healing.

The issue people have isn't with DPS stance tanks. The issue is with bad tanks that think they're pros by running hardcore content like Swallow's Compass in DPS stance 100% of the time, and that die because they have to manage aggro more carefully and press buttons to not die.

20% less damage taken doesn't exactly translates into 20% more healer damage (not saying it doesn't allow healers to DPS a bit more, just that it will be very small), and that it costs at least 25% of a tank's DPS (-20% damage from stance, and some more due to being locked out of abilities like Blood Weapon or Fell Cleave). So it's usually more efficient to have the tank in DPS stance.

It looks like everything is either white or black. You either need to be out of tank stance for big e-pen DPS, or in tank stance full time so the healers are comfy. Tank stance is a tool that must be used wisely, like every other defensive tools a tank has.

Did you only glance at the post, i said 40% more Effort Healing, not 40% more healing [...]. Do high end content and tell me that the healer isn't using more healing on the tank alone when he's not in tank stance while still tanking, i can't get enough of this fallacy, let alone it being equally funny. Makiong a difference is about the tank pretending to be DPS, making a difference his him doing his roll as mitigating damage while taking all the damage for everyone else, that's why its called the tank.

Oh poor soul, you have to press buttons to heal people ? Sure Eos would have an easier time healing a tank in Defiance/Grit/ShO. If you actually did high-end content other than a couple tries on O5S you'd notice tank stance is far from necessary to a tank's survival. Sure, it may cost the healer a little bit more dedication healing the tank, but in return it's a nice boost to the raid DPS. Because it's what it boils down to: more raid DPS, so DPS checks are easier.

For instance, you need about 32'500 raid DPS to kill God Kefka before he enrages and kills the party. If all 4 DPS are dealing 5'500 DPS each (which is reasonable), say 1'000 DPS due to Limit Break, there's still 9'500 DPS that must come from tanks and healers. Losing 1k to 1.5k DPS on a tank (because of tank stance) so the healer can use 3 more Stone IV during the fight is a big DPS loss, period.

Also shows how little you know about high-end raids. FFXIV tanks have enough tools to mitigate the damage coming at them, and maintaining aggro, while maximizing their DPS. Because everyone's DPS matter, not only the DPS roles'.

[Risvertasashi]

Except it doesn't ? If taking 20% less damage means healing 20% less, please explain how do you heal 20% less when a Cure II is already like 35% of a tank's HP ? It's not like you have a healer button to heal 20% less and gain 20% damage instead.

You have a very weird way of twisting words. But I already answered this in my first post.

do you really think it would be worth more than 1k DPS lost due to tank stance ?

Depends on the specific scenario. For example, a very large dungeon pull:
1. Warrior - Definitely DPS stance, as Warrior (from a skilled player) in this case has the very best AoE, outperforming even holy spam.
2. Paladin - lol aoe. Paladin aoe DPS is probably the worst in the game. Tank stance it, and let the healer take it away. Healer 8k+ DPS is definitely far more worthwhile than a pitiful 1k the paladin might gain.

Now the obvious counterexample is trial and raid bosses (as Guardian in your example), where a healer's DPS output, even at the high end, is terrible and tanks can do far more. In those cases even a Paladin should be in DPS stance as much as gear and other circumstances allow for.

[Canadane]

you're absolutely right, it takes 40% more effort healing as they would need to heal the damage that would have been mitigated had the tank been in his defensive stance. So now the healer is gaining aggro and dpsing even less than she ought to be and definitely spending more sp on healing provoking more aggro especially if people other than the tank are also taking damage, which in my experience means more AOE healing repeatedly in some cases which means even more aggro, and of course there is always that one tank who says, "Drop aggro or die." if I could reach through my monitor and choke these people to death we'd have even less tanks.

Lucid Dreaming should be used on cooldown. That's just healer 101. If enmity is your concern well...don't be.

[Megguido]

Depends on the specific scenario. For example, a very large dungeon pull:
1. Warrior - Definitely DPS stance, as Warrior (from a skilled player) in this case has the very best AoE, outperforming even holy spam.
2. Paladin - lol aoe. Paladin aoe DPS is probably the worst in the game. Tank stance it, and let the healer take it away. Healer 8k+ DPS is definitely far more worthwhile than a pitiful 1k the paladin might gain.

Well, I guess my point of view is biased. I'm taking from a raider's PoV, not taking into account the more "casual" content. I agree that a healer's DPS in a dungeon is way more valuable than a PLD's (Holy spam in a 10+ mobs pack can make a WHM outdps some of DPS roles).

Though in the case of a dungeon, WAR and DRK can do great in AoE while the WHM is going full holy. But yeah, most of the people here talk about dungeons and stuff, sorry for not considering everything ><

[MoroMurasaki]

Lucid Dreaming should be used on cooldown. That's just healer 101. If enmity is your concern well...don't be.

I get that this likely isn't the content you're referencing but as a WHM learning God Kefka I have taken enough autos (and the occasional buster) to be bothered by this sentiment as a generalization.

[HyoMinPark]

AHHHGGG!!! I hate when people say this! The numbers may LOOK different but a Warriors tank stance is MATHEMATICALLY EQUIVALENT to Grit and Shield Oath.


Edit for clarity- a friend of mine who lost forum access since he unsubbed posted this. I'll relay replies to him.

If your friend thinks Defiance grants a 20% reduction in damage like Shield Oath and Grit does, he's wrong. It gives +25% HP, but WARs still take the same amount of damage in Defiance as they do in Deliverance (e.g., a tankbuster that hits for 50,000 hits for 50,000 on a WAR regardless of the stance they are in). Which was my point - they technically do not take any less damage regardless of stance, but effectively the same amount. It just seems like they took less because their HP pool is larger in Defiance. Defiance only affects the potency GCD heals (Cure I/II/III, Physick/Adlo/Succor, Benefic I/II, etc.) and offers no healing bonus for Assize, Tetra, Essential Dignity, Lustrate, or Indom, etc., which optimal healers use over GCD healing.

But, by all means, if he has math to prove his point, please share it. Makes for a better argument than just virtually screaming at someone.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Except it literally does? It can be the difference between regen keeping them topped, and needing to stop DPSing to cure.

That doesn't mean the tank's DPS isn't worth it but saying 20% damage reduction is nothing is very silly. Especially a warrior on large dungeon pulls, yeah, you want them AoE'ing. (PLD on the other hand, probably better to stay in shield oath and let the healer DPS more).

It's nothing in the grand scheme of things because tanks suffer significantly higher damage loss than healers. That PLD sitting in Shield will buy you no more than a couple extra Stone IVs throughout the entirety of the fight while throwing away thousands of raid DPS. In dungeons? Sure, you rotate stance more regularly because the incoming damage is severe and Holy spam is more beneficial. It's typically why on PLD I will purposely bottom out my TP and Clemency to give the healer more opportunity to DPS. Now if they aren't... I'll likely drop stance and go full DPS tank mode because I may as well make up their lack of damage somehow. And I'll give them something to do besides stand around aimlessly.

When it comes to bosses though, forcing a tank into tank stance should be avoided at all costs due to how severe the penalty is with very minimal benefit. It's literally a last resort option and nothing else. Tank stance is so severe a damage loss, it's actually better for the SAM/MNK to use Third Eye/Purification than having a non-WAR (with Unchained) go back into tank stance to do another combo. Why is that? Ask the developers who seem blissfully ignorant on why tanks and healers prioritize damage so highly in this game.

[soonahn]

Do high end content

You claim to "do high end content" and you still don't know how to properly use the tools of given classes? How pathetic.