Healers, thoughts on the dual DPS tanks?

[SargentToughie]

I tend to thnik : "You wanted to stay in DPS stance and died ? your bad, not mine"

If god created tank stance he probably had something in mind

Ah that's cool. If you ever instance with me, I'll just take care of it.

Sword Oath = more oath gauge
more oath gauge = more shelltrons
Shelltrons = MP
MP = dank clemency for the solo heals

[Canadane]

Taking 20% more damage doesn't mean 20% more healing is needed. Not even close.
So healers can DPS just as much as they normally would.

Though I find most people complaining about tanks using their dps stance are the same people who don't dps as healers. :<

[Selvokaz]

if you see tanks not in tank stance during trials or raids you have my condolences, those guys cause 90% of all deaths during such trials or raids, simply because they think the 20% more damage they can deal outside of tank stance is enough to make up for something that the DPS are outpacing by 120% x4.

I have no love for Tanks that stance dance during trials or raids, you can get away with it in dungeons, but not in trials, not when so many people with so many different skill levels expect you to do the one thing you're recruited for, and that's hold threat, so that healers don't pull aggro trying to keep the DPS and Tanks alive.

[Selvokaz]

Taking 20% more damage doesn't mean 20% more healing is needed. Not even close.
So healers can DPS just as much as they normally would.

Though I find most people complaining about tanks using their dps stance are the same people who don't dps as healers. :<

you're absolutely right, it takes 40% more effort healing as they would need to heal the damage that would have been mitigated had the tank been in his defensive stance. So now the healer is gaining aggro and dpsing even less than she ought to be and definitely spending more sp on healing provoking more aggro especially if people other than the tank are also taking damage, which in my experience means more AOE healing repeatedly in some cases which means even more aggro, and of course there is always that one tank who says, "Drop aggro or die." if I could reach through my monitor and choke these people to death we'd have even less tanks.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

if you see tanks not in tank stance during trials or raids you have my condolences, those guys cause 90% of all deaths during such trials or raids, simply because they think the 20% more damage they can deal outside of tank stance is enough to make up for something that the DPS are outpacing by 120% x4.

I have no love for Tanks that stance dance during trials or raids, you can get away with it in dungeons, but not in trials, not when so many people with so many different skill levels expect you to do the one thing you're recruited for, and that's hold threat, so that healers don't pull aggro trying to keep the DPS and Tanks alive.

Good morning, you seem to sleep behind a rock if you think tank stance makes a difference outside of spike damage / tank buster.

Every tank is well enough equipped to deal with tank busters and other spike damage to ease the healer burden drastically. Tank stance in today's content is used either when there is a gear difference between tanks and DPS players to do a bit more enmity before ultimately switching into damage mode or to use it as extra mitigation in case you beefed your tools somewhere on the way - which only matters for tank busters really. Lv70 tanks AND healers have been given enough tools to sustain the tank with 98% DPS stance uptime with the bare minimum of single-target heal GCDs needed (depends on healer setup). Alas, not every healer is efficient and thus they use Cure II / Adloqium / Benefic II a fair bit more and focus less on damage, which is ok because mediocrity is a fine thing. This does not stop tanks using DPS stance however and most healers don't sweat it either.

Blaming a tank in DPS stance for 90% of all deaths in trials or raids has less to do with the lack of the x2.7 enmity buffer and 20% mitigation and more with failing mechanics, more often than not caused by DPS instead. Mitigation related stuff won't exactly be saved by tank stance alone. And god bless your poor soul if your tank stance is Defiance. However, the OT in fights with adds will either use a lot of enmity skills or perhaps even tank stance (DRK can do without due to DA Powerslash) depending on how much he thinks is necessary. If a healer is pulling aggro, that is a whole different can of worms to begin with which is more of an issue with one healer overdoing it on the healing spectrum instead of sharing the workload with their co-healer (hello to the O8S Cure III & Medica spaming White Mages) and they should plan Lucid Dreaming for that.

Of course, this goes by the idea that everyone is on a level playing field and has about equal item levels.

you're absolutely right, it takes 40% more effort healing as they would need to heal the damage that would have been mitigated had the tank been in his defensive stance. So now the healer is gaining aggro and dpsing even less than she ought to be and definitely spending more sp on healing provoking more aggro especially if people other than the tank are also taking damage, which in my experience means more AOE healing repeatedly in some cases which means even more aggro, and of course there is always that one tank who says, "Drop aggro or die." if I could reach through my monitor and choke these people to death we'd have even less tanks.

Not only is your math off, your reasoning behind it is ridiculous.

Base (DPS stance) - 100% effective HP
Tank Stance (Shield Oath; Grit) - 80% damage taken, 125% eHP
Tank Stance (Defiance w/ IB) - 100% damage taken, +20% maxHP, +25% HEAL -> also roughly 125% eHP (only if it is a single spike of damage, otherwise SO + Grit are better).

So roughly you need to heal 25% more if your norm is tank stance and heal a DPS stance player but heal 20% less if your norm is DPS stance and heal a tank stance player. Given heal output is more than just "bare minimum", you realistically always overheal a tank a bit and drop a regen on him on more damage-intense moments (which he often also uses a form of fluff mitigation to aid on that), so while on paper you heal "more", you heal realistically the same. The only change here is the spike damage threshold being less spicy for surviving tank busters.

On the matter of healing aggro - if a healer ever grabs aggro, he is healing massive AOE damage spikes and not a tank. Take O8S with Heartless (Arch)Angel as an example - frequent 1HP drops needed to be picked up by healers rapidly. The key to the issue is aggro management by splitting healing workload, tanks doing voke-shirks or tankswaps to boost enmity or efficient usage of AOE mitigation and enmity dumps. If a healer in any content is building massive aggro to the point of overtaking a tank without using Lucid by solo healing he is plain and simple healing way too much and way too hard to make any sense. That said healer DPS enmity is fairly decent as well - if you use less DPS (realistically 10 GCD spells at most) you also generate less enmity. And according to this sweet table, healing enmity is half of damage enmity because of the x0.5 enmity modifier for healing. That said the only healer currently having enmity issues occasionally is White Mage and primarily so as stated before by overcompensating with the AOE heals. You have lucid to dump 50% enmity and gain some MP, you have Thin Air to cast for 0MP for 12s, you gain 10% MP via Assize. I see no issue.

And other people taking damage depends if its unavoidable or not. If its the former, you'd need to AOE heal regardless which will cover for the tank as well. If it is the latter, blame your DPS but at the end of the day you will hit your tank too if using AOE heals.

That aside, I am kind of disappointed to see you as a Lv70 Dark Knight main according to your forum profile, yet you seem to not grasp how much tank stance hinders players on more than just damage.

Shield Oath generates gauge via blocking for 5 each or Holy Spirit for 20 each. Sword Oath generates via auto attacks for 5 each. Overall you have more sheltrons for spike damage and MP management.

Defiance aside from coming with a penalty (Unchained eases this a bit) it also doesn't sport the 5% damage gain, the 1% per 10 gauge crit rate bonus nor the access to Fell Cleave. WAR being a damage-heavy tank is their identity and by forcing them to waddle around swinging inner beasts you make them pay a MASSIVE damage cost. You said so nicely you have no love for tanks that stance dance, yet WAR is never meant to be locked into Defiance.

Grit may give access to the small heal from Soul Eater and Blood Price, but locks you out from DRKs running engine that generates more MP, more blood and more attacks per minute (Blood Weapon). More MP = more TBN = more mitigation that matters over 20% from Grit. Even if Grit had no damage penalty you'd never be able to compensate for the bonus MP gain, increased skillspeed and only good reason to use Delirium with Blood Weapon and you should know that very well.

[Selvokaz]

Did you only glance at the post, i said 40% more Effort Healing, not 40% more healing, which shows me you didn't really bother either reading what I said or maybe just didn't understand it, also it makes a ton of difference, if because if you play anything other than dungeons you can see the difference very clearly. Do high end content and tell me that the healer isn't using more healing on the tank alone when he's not in tank stance while still tanking, i can't get enough of this fallacy, let alone it being equally funny. Makiong a difference is about the tank pretending to be DPS, making a difference his him doing his roll as mitigating damage while taking all the damage for everyone else, that's why its called the tank.

[Jukebox12]

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As a pld off-tank in savage it doesn't take more effort to heal my co tank who is a warrior if you think it takes more effort then A you are not using your healing Gcd and Ogcd then you are doing something wrong.

[Risvertasashi]

Taking 20% more damage doesn't mean 20% more healing is needed. Not even close.

Except it literally does? It can be the difference between regen keeping them topped, and needing to stop DPSing to cure.

That doesn't mean the tank's DPS isn't worth it but saying 20% damage reduction is nothing is very silly. Especially a warrior on large dungeon pulls, yeah, you want them AoE'ing. (PLD on the other hand, probably better to stay in shield oath and let the healer DPS more).

[Adventica6]

The only time I care about tanks playing without tank stance is when I am under geared on my healer. Once I have geared up my healer I can usually carry a tank geared or under geared through content while they remain in dps mode. It can be annoying at times but I've also had good experiences with good tanks who know how to tank without tank stance, I even ran into a bad geared tank who still managed to do a great job dpsing because it was his alt and he knew the ropes.

A lot of the burden is left to the healer when a tank is playing without his tank stance, if you have decent gear, decent skill on your healer you can speed up the run by letting the tank dps or you can Qq about it and have a slower run, it's up to you as the healer.

[Hestzhyen]

Defiance only grants you +25% HP while giving a +20% healing boost and reducing the damage the WAR deals by 20%; it doesn’t have a built-in damage mitigation to it like Shield Oath and Grit. Vengeance, Rampart, and Raw Intuition all work just the same in Defiance as they do in Deliverance; it’s not “more effective” in one or the other, unless you are just talking about having the extra HP cushion. In which case, they still don’t mitigate any more or less in terms of damage taken. Just the HP loss seems less because Defiance boosts a WAR’s total HP pool.

AHHHGGG!!! I hate when people say this! The numbers may LOOK different but a Warriors tank stance is MATHEMATICALLY EQUIVALENT to Grit and Shield Oath.


Edit for clarity- a friend of mine who lost forum access since he unsubbed posted this. I'll relay replies to him.