5 floors each raid tier in 5.0?

[Rufalus]

With the trend of getting less each patch... I expect them to reduce each raid tier to 3 fights instead of 4.

I mean it's spread across the gaps more instead of piling everything onto one day, but 4.3x as a whole was already looking like the biggest patch cycle we've ever had before we found out that the MHW crossover stuff is also coming this patch.

4.3 - 4.36 is the following....
> MSQ
> 1x normal dungeon
> 2x trials and 2x Ex trials (Tsuku, Ratholos)
> Eureka Pagos zone
> 100- floor Deep Dungeon
> Alliance Raid
> Ultimate Raid
> Custom Delivery client & sidequests
> Doman Reconstruction & sidequests
> Hildibrand quests
> Beast tribe quests
> Other sidequests (four lords)
> Other updates (borderland pvp changes, Feast, squadron dungeons, DF choco races, etc)

Shrinking content is a myth; 4.3x is unusually large. However judging from the last Live Letter, 4.4x patches won't have as much stuff, but it's not a trend. That was a big one to follow... Ultimate + Deep Dungeon + Eureka + MHW was very generous in addition to all the usual stuff....

[Nezerius]

I mean it's spread across the gaps more instead of piling everything onto one day, but 4.3x as a whole was already looking like the biggest patch cycle we've ever had before we found out that the MHW crossover stuff is also coming this patch.

4.3 - 4.36 is the following....
> MSQ
> 1x normal dungeon
> 2x trials and 2x Ex trials (Tsuku, Ratholos)
> Eureka Pagos zone
> 100- floor Deep Dungeon
> Alliance Raid
> Ultimate Raid
> Custom Delivery client & sidequests
> Doman Reconstruction & sidequests
> Hildibrand quests
> Beast tribe quests
> Other sidequests (four lords)
> Other updates (borderland pvp changes, Feast, squadron dungeons, DF choco races, etc)

Shrinking content is a myth; 4.3x is unusually large. However judging from the last Live Letter, 4.4x patches won't have as much stuff, but it's not a trend. That was a big one to follow... Ultimate + Deep Dungeon + Eureka + MHW was very generous in addition to all the usual stuff....

4.3x is unusually large? Let's compare it to the entirety of 3.3:

• MSQ
• Two expert dungeons (Sohr Khai, Hullbreaker Isle HM)
• One normal and one EX trial (Final Steps of Faith)
• Palace of the Dead (First part, to gauge its popularity)
• Fields of Glory (Shatter) frontline map
• Alliance Raid (Weeping City of Mhach)
• The Aquapolis
• Warring Triad sidequests
• Hildibrand sidequests
• Anima sidequests, and its next step
• Beast tribe quests (Moogles)
• Raid Finder dyea
• Other updates (Gnath/Vanu gear added to the respective beast tribes, Flowerpots/Flower vases, more housing wards, new DoH/L gear, dyeable Dreadwyrm gear, etc.)

If 4.3 is the unusually large patch, than what do you make of a patch that's pretty much equal in size (or larger, since I don't really agree with throwing a crossover event as being part of the actual patrch)?

The difference being that 3.3 wasn't nearly as spread out as 4.3x will be.

[Rufalus]

If 4.3 is the unusually large patch, than what do you make of a patch that's pretty much equal in size (or larger, since I don't really agree with throwing a crossover event as being part of the actual patrch)?

The difference being that 3.3 wasn't nearly as spread out as 4.3x will be.

Compare Eureka Pagos to Anima saga. One is a complete zone with its own enemies and mechanics and music, the other is just quests redirecting you around old content. It's like comparing a new raid to a weekly quest that sends you back into an old raid. These Eureka zones in 4.x series are massive scale content which don't have a parallel in 3.x. I was quite surprised that they managed to keep that going alongside a new deep dungeon instead of just doing one or the other. Next the MHW content you say doesn't count, but it's real content that took a greater than zero amount of dev time so I feel it's relevant when arguing the devs aren't just being lazy and producing less and less stuff. It's a permanent new normal trial and extreme trial with a lot of new rewards attached (mount, minions, gearsets, housing item) not just a typical small scale event. We've dropped one normal dungeon but gained Ultimate raid compared to 3.x patches. I think the devs are doing fine.

[Vaer]

4.3x is unusually large? Let's compare it to the entirety of 3.3:

• MSQ
• Two expert dungeons (Sohr Khai, Hullbreaker Isle HM)
• One normal and one EX trial (Final Steps of Faith)
• Palace of the Dead (First part, to gauge its popularity)
• Fields of Glory (Shatter) frontline map
• Alliance Raid (Weeping City of Mhach)
• The Aquapolis
• Warring Triad sidequests
• Hildibrand sidequests
• Anima sidequests, and its next step
• Beast tribe quests (Moogles)
• Raid Finder dyea
• Other updates (Gnath/Vanu gear added to the respective beast tribes, Flowerpots/Flower vases, more housing wards, new DoH/L gear, dyeable Dreadwyrm gear, etc.)

If 4.3 is the unusually large patch, than what do you make of a patch that's pretty much equal in size (or larger, since I don't really agree with throwing a crossover event as being part of the actual patrch)?

The difference being that 3.3 wasn't nearly as spread out as 4.3x will be.

TBH the only thing pulled out was one dungeon, aquapolis (there's already two of these areas anyway in SB and it's being updated next patch) in exchange for the 2nd area of eureka and an ultimate trial. Honestly I think they put more effort into the Namazu tribe than moogles. (You can do them as a gatherer in addition this time) The story this time for HoH is lame, and PoTD actually had a somewhat functioning one but wasn't that great either. The hard floors for PoTD didn't release until 3.35 so they spread that patch out, too. They also added a ton of housing wards in the previous 4.2 patch. For PvP, they already added Rival Wings, a new map and spending most of their time making the pvp team thing/tournament. If we aren't counting MHW collab, it's a wash to me. It's mostly the same stuff, just spread around. Depends on how much you value that extra dungeon I guess.

[Nezerius]

TBH the only thing pulled out was one dungeon, aquapolis (there's already two of these areas anyway in SB and it's being updated next patch) in exchange for the 2nd area of eureka and an ultimate trial.

I was pointing out that calling 4.3x "unusually large" was odd, and compared it to a HW patch with the same number.

Honestly I think they put more effort into the Namazu tribe than moogles. (You can do them as a gatherer in addition this time)

I dunno, I felt like the gathering part of the dailies was pretty basic, similar to how the Ixali dailies sometimes had players gathering stuff before the crafting part.

The story this time for HoH is lame, and PoTD actually had a somewhat functioning one but wasn't that great either. The hard floors for PoTD didn't release until 3.35 so they spread that patch out, too.

I forgot that floor 51-200 was actually added in 3.35, so I can add that to the list. I also never said that SE didn't spread out content in 3.3x, just that it wasn't nearly as spread out as 4.3x. I'm also including content after the initial 3.3 patch (3.35/3.38), because that's what Rufalus was doing as well.

They also added a ton of housing wards in the previous 4.2 patch. For PvP, they already added Rival Wings, a new map and spending most of their time making the pvp team thing/tournament. If we aren't counting MHW collab, it's a wash to me. It's mostly the same stuff, just spread around. Depends on how much you value that extra dungeon I guess.

They also added a new PvP mode in the 4.2x patch, with the Feast being released in 4.21.

What I'm getting at is that the amount of content isn't shrinking as much as it seems, but the amount of content delivered with each individual patch certainly has shrinked (or in other words, it's been spread out over the initial patch/subsequent 'mini'patches a lot more).

I also agree that the 8-man raids should really feel more like raids, instead of teleporting from fight arena to fight arena. I imagine this is the case for Omega because they spent a lot of resources on developing the Alliance raids.

[Vaer]

I dunno, I felt like the gathering part of the dailies was pretty basic, similar to how the Ixali dailies sometimes had players gathering stuff before the crafting part.

Ixal was more of a crafter thing with a side gathering option. Namazu you can actually just do it on gatherer completely.

[Rufalus]

What I'm getting at is that the amount of content isn't shrinking as much as it seems, but the amount of content delivered with each individual patch certainly has shrinked (or in other words, it's been spread out over the initial patch/subsequent 'mini'patches a lot more).

The overall amount of content across the patch(es) is more meaningful. Spreading it more evenly doesn't mean there is less overall... yeah day 1 of the major patch has less, but then the follow up minor patches have massively more than they used to, because it was spread out.
4.36 has Eureka Pagos and MHW content. 3.36 has... there wasn't one, they didn't have a x.x6 patch in that cycle, it was more of a gap. You have to compare 3.3x as a whole to 4.3x.

Taken as a whole I think it didn't even shrink or remain the same. It was actually an increase as I already explained. The amount of work put into Eureka Pagos is hugely more than what Anima quest provides because it is new original content rather than farming old existing content. It's a complete new zone (not the same one as anemos) with new mechanics, enemies, music, quests.

That's why I say 4.3x is unusually large for a patch. You have to look at the amount of work put into creating the content, not just the number of bullet points. They won't all be like this one, it's an anomaly, but these large patches still happen so it's disingenuous for people to say content is on a downward spiral. A patch would usually just have one large-scale piece of content that can be farmed for a lot of hours in addition to all the regular updates, but this time we got more than one (deep dungeon and eureka back to back) while also fitting in a collab of larger scale than most (new original Trial battle, not just farming old fates like yo kai was). It's a bigger dev effort to make new things than it is to reincentivise old things.

[Nezerius]

The overall amount of content across the patch(es) is more meaningful.

That's your opinion on it. There's plenty of people (me included) who don't share that same opinion.
It's also very clear that spreading content like this is to entice players to subscribe every month between every major content patch.

4.36 has Eureka Pagos and MHW content. 3.36 has... there wasn't one, they didn't have a x.x6 patch in that cycle, it was more of a gap. You have to compare 3.3x as a whole to 4.3x.

Which is exactly what I did? I compared all the content from the entirety of 3.3x to your list of content of 4.3x. 3.36 didn't exist because SE didn't spread content around nearly as much as they do now.
Also, the MHW crossover isn't developed as 4.36 content. It's crossover content that happened to be ready for 4.36.

Taken as a whole I think it didn't even shrink or remain the same. It was actually an increase as I already explained. The amount of work put into Eureka Pagos is hugely more than what Anima quest provides because it is new original content rather than farming old existing content. It's a complete new zone (not the same one as anemos) with new mechanics, enemies, music, quests.

Let's not forget that Diadem (both versions) was SE testing the waters. And while it ultimately wasn't as successful, they definitely learned from it with Eureka. This isn't some magic content that's never been seen before, its groundwork can be traced back to HW.

That's why I say 4.3x is unusually large for a patch. You have to look at the amount of work put into creating the content, not just the number of bullet points. They won't all be like this one, it's an anomaly, but these large patches still happen so it's disingenuous for people to say content is on a downward spiral. A patch would usually just have one large-scale piece of content that can be farmed for a lot of hours in addition to all the regular updates, but this time we got more than one (deep dungeon and eureka back to back) while also fitting in a collab of larger scale than most (new original Trial battle, not just farming old fates like yo kai was). It's a bigger dev effort to make new things than it is to reincentivise old things.

On the other hand, we've also lost 100 floors in the new Deep Dungeon. And while the story of Palace of the Dead wasn't too deep (pun not intended), it was miles better than the 'story' we got with floor 1-30 in HoH.
Also, again, the MHW cross-over isn't specifically developed for 4.36, so it's a bit silly to take that into account. It's not even part of the 4.3 mini-site, which showcases all the content of the entire patch.

Personally, I'd rather have the initial major patch have the majority of the content. I prefer being able to decide on what content I'd want to run, instead of SE telling me "You can do x content now, y content in a month, and z content in two months."
I'll agree that it was obviously different content to the Anima questchain, but Eureka also caused its relic questchain to be delayed by quite a while. The (almost non-existent) Anemos weapon's story also can't really be compared to the Anima one, but we'll have to wait and see if they actually do anything with it in Pagos.

[Rufalus]

Which is exactly what I did?

I directly quoted the parts I was replying to. You said the amount of content into each individual or 'mini' patch is shrinking, so I said that is not meaningful. They just shifted the distribution around; the meaningful comparison is the whole patch cycle.

That's your opinion on it. There's plenty of people (me included) who don't share that same opinion.

I'm not sure it's an opinion. Isn't it just a fact to say the overall amount of content is the meaningful metric here? You can't pinpoint one random day and say the content released on that day is representative of the state of the game. One date might only have hotfixes, another date might have content. So we look at each 3-4 month cycle as a collective and evaluate that. I don't think we disagree with each other on that, just a misunderstanding.

On the other hand, we've also lost 100 floors in the new Deep Dungeon. And while the story of Palace of the Dead wasn't too deep (pun not intended), it was miles better than the 'story' we got with floor 1-30 in HoH.
Also, again, the MHW cross-over isn't specifically developed for 4.36, so it's a bit silly to take that into account. It's not even part of the 4.3 mini-site, which showcases all the content of the entire patch.

The number of floors is just a design choice, somewhat informed by player feedback of wanting to get to the challenging stuff faster. They could generate 700 floors if they wanted, it's mostly just a question of how much repetitive filler should there be before the hard top floors, how long should runs takes. You're right, the story was better in PotD, more developed.

MHW collab content was created by the same FF XIV dev team as the other FF XIV content. I don't see why we should pretend it does not exist when discussing the amount of content being released in a certain timeframe. I'm just trying to give fair credit where it's due and dismiss falsehoods about the devs getting lazier over time. The quality is subjective but if we're discussing quantity of original content, I don't think it's accurate to say it's falling off in a significant way as the cynics suggest.