Dangerous Areas

[BreyVoreas93]

It’s been fleshed our more than once by several people on this thread alone. The fact that you your not seeing it leads me to believe you read my original post and then skipped to the end with your opinion. Again, this is ALL conjecture because this idea hasn’t been done the way that many would like for it to have been, if you throw Eureka out as an example then move along, it’s already failed in many of the things people have proposed on this thread. So yes, it’s not at all fleshed out, and I’d say that was the original intent of the post, to do just that.....lastly, and most importantly just because you spew a few opinions doesn’t mean the rest of us will come heed your almighty words and completely agree with your objections. Your entitled to that but that’s the point of this all. Thanks for contributing!

[Lambdafish]

and most importantly just because you spew a few opinions doesn’t mean the rest of us will come heed your almighty words

This is the most ironic thing I've ever read

[BreyVoreas93]

This is the most ironic thing I've ever read

It would be ironic had I been pushing my opinions on people and expecting them to roll with them...the worst thing about the people that disagree is it’s just straight resistance to the idea. The fact you disagree may actually make you more suited to give your opinions on how this could be done right, but instead it’s just a “your idea could never work, it’s doomed, next post”

[Lambdafish]

It would be ironic had I been pushing my opinions on people and expecting them to roll with them...the worst thing about the people that disagree is it’s just straight resistance to the idea. The fact you disagree may actually make you more suited to give your opinions on how this could be done right, but instead it’s just a “your idea could never work, it’s doomed, next post”

I actually told you how this would work. In an isolated instanced area that can make its own rules rather than having to conform to the overworld, otherwise there are too many obstacles that would get in the way, so pretty much Eureka is exactly what you are looking for. The execution of the so-called "dangerous area" in Eureka is actually well executed, the enemies are challenging, and gate passage to certain areas, the levelling system means that we start at square one against this difficulty despite being top level, and the loss of XP upon death is a suitable consequence for death. Thats how this idea would best be executed (and arguable was well executed), but we only need to ask the communities reaction to this kind of content to see if it is viable in the future.

So no, I'm not naysaying, my thought process is actually grounded somewhat in facts, observations, and analysis.

[BreyVoreas93]

Thats fair, it’s and that’s why I loved Eureka when it first came out, and you actually had to go off with your party and grind mobs, no train. Maybe th next iteration (Pagos) will succeed in some of the failures of the first. If they manage to do that I’d be content with that, it’s terrible the Train methodology has taken over there as well.

If it’s not a viable option for the overworld which I’m not sure still, I would at minimum live for them to bring these beautiful zones to life in some way, I wouldn’t mind seeing a Besieged type content in the game, it all seems like a waste and has since the first expansion.

[ElHeggunte]

Not everyone has to think like you. Danger and risk are fun to lots of people.

Yes, I know. I never said or implied that they did. That's why I'm asking for one of you to explain what you find fun about a concept that (at least in the way it's being presented in this thread) just sounds tedious or pointless. I'm looking for a more robust answer beyond just saying "it sounds fun to me". Like I don't expect philosophical levels of detail, but I would like to know what's going through your head when thinking about a "dangerous" world that has "fun" crop up as a way to describe how you feel about it when that world is apparently made up of mobs that can one-shot you or ridiculous environmental hazards like quicksand or stray lightning.

Like I said originally, I would love to see the terrain be dangerous, falling rocks, quick sand, weather (thunder plains FFX any1) I know SE can be dissasociated at times but let’s not give up all hope that someone can’t design this in a cool, inavative way.

Like this. What's supposed to be fun about this? Being arbitrarily punished by the environment of all things? Can you avoid these environmental hazards? Are they persistent or do they abate after a period of time? If it's a matter of just standing around waiting for the hazard to subside, what exactly is dangerous or risky about it? If you can't avoid them or it's difficult to avoid them, what's the consequence for getting caught in them? And why would anyone want to bother going into a zone like that more than just once out of a sense of morbid curiosity?

If I have to move out of the way of a lavaflow or get under cover to avoid random lightning until they subside, all you've done is bring my gameplay in the area grinding to a halt instead of presenting something that's supposed to be challenging or legitimately threatening ("Oh no, a deadly lavaflow! I guess I'll just stand in this clearly marked safe area for 10 minutes while I wait for it to pass! Or I can just teleport to a different zone and do something else for a while! Phew, I thought I was in trouble for a moment!"). If I just have a random chance of being harmed by a stray bolt of lightning or crushed by an unpredictable falling rock, all you've done is hit me with an RNG punishment that makes me not want to go into the area at all. If I can obtain a temporary way to avoid or lessen these hazards it makes me wonder why you had them to begin with as it would only then be "dangerous" to the players who decided to YOLO SWAG 360 NO SCOPE their way through the zone. It would just feel like something you threw at me just to be an annoying fly in my ointment instead of a deadly cloud of Africanized bees hot on my heels.

That's not to say you can't have a gauntlet of deadly mobs or environmental hazards to traverse be fun. Those can be fun if you're only expected to go through them once. But if you expect players to go through this slog every single time they need to come into the area, what you've done is just made a bitter soup of tedium that nobody wants to taste instead of something that most players would consider deliciously fun.

For example, let's say if you wanted to enter Eureka for the first time you had to go through a thrilling 15 minute multi-phased battle with Mike 'The Michael Jackson' Johnson, The Gatekeeper (rolls off the tongue, dudin't it?). That can be nice and challenging and fun the first time. But if you had to go through that same 15 minute battle every single time you wanted to enter Eureka, it would get very old very fast and would just make players not want to bother with the content if there wasn't an easier way to enter after their initial foray.

To take this to the extreme, why bother having anything aggro then in the open world in that case? [...]

Aggressive mobs in the world still serve a purpose. First, it gives a little more life to your world if its inhabitants behave in different and (relatively) believable ways. In real life I would fully expect a large territorial predator or an enemy soldier to attack me if they detect me. Second, it helps guide players to keep them on the right track by deterring all but the most determined explorers from going too far off the beaten path before they're ready. Third, it also gives progressing players something to look forward to: "Some day soon I'll have grown powerful enough to explore what's in there" or "I can't wait until I'm strong enough to finally fight that guy who keeps giving me the side-eye" or "Your ass is grass, Mike 'The Michael Jackson' Johnson, just as soon as I finish building my lawnmower made out of level ups".

Side note, but that's also why each DoH has levels to its Stealth ability; so you can't just use it to bypass everything from the moment you reach level 8. It's the same thing with Hide only protecting you from mobs within a certain level of your own.

It’s been fleshed our more than once by several people on this thread alone.

Has it? I've seen ideas, yes, but I haven't seen any level of detail that would make me say "yeah, that's fleshed out and well explained". I've only seen you bandy about vague ideas, fail to explain yourself, and then get defensive when someone rightfully pans something that seemingly had no thought put behind it beyond "that sounds like fun".

[HelSpites]

There is a difference in an opinion and trying to force yours down peoples throat. He has like 3 posts on here saying the same thing. It’s just negative, I totally respect disagreeing it’s trying to post it over an over to get people like minded.

It would be ironic had I been pushing my opinions on people and expecting them to roll with them...the worst thing about the people that disagree is it’s just straight resistance to the idea. The fact you disagree may actually make you more suited to give your opinions on how this could be done right, but instead it’s just a “your idea could never work, it’s doomed, next post”

Really? Is that what you've been reading? I think we might be reading different threads then. Let's look over this discussion shall we?

My first post explained my position on this subject.I opened by saying that I don't want these kinds of zones in game in order to set the understanding that I'm not going to fix your idea for you. Then I gave an example of what I thought was a very poorly implemented dangerous open world zone to elaborate on why I dislike this idea.

In my second post I disagreed with the idea that deleveling should be reintroduced into the game and that flight should be taken away from players. I then went ahead and cited an example of a game where this happened and noted that the response for players has not been positive. I also went ahead and questioned what your notion of “adventure” means in the context of an mmo. That being said, it's not hard to extrapolate what you meant, so I went and explained how, what I assumed to be your idea of an “adventure”, falls apart the moment you introduce the typical mmo player to that type of content, citing an example of how this went down with content from ff14 itself.

My third post reaffirmed my position while again, citing an in game example of a dangerous zone that failed.

Finally, my fourth post explained why I thought open world dungeons and zones with traps in them wouldn't work. Again, I'm assuming that any open world content will result in a zerg rush because just about every piece of “challenging” open world content that as been introduced to the game, from boss fates, to hunts to diadem to eureka have all been trivialized by the zerg rush. Why would this be any different? And if measures were put into place to limit the size of parties going into that content in order to prevent the zerg rush, why not just make it an instance. Now, this is where you could have argued that making the dungeon an open world thing would add some sort of value to it that instanced content doesn't have, but you never did.

In fact, let's go over your rebuttals to my arguments, shall we?

I see your point. I suppose though, at the end of the day it’s a preference per individual. As long as it was one zone, with rarer mats, monsters, etc, I would like to see it still. I feel like alothough some may find it annoying, it would also bring a sense of adventure back to the world which really feels devoid and wasted atm.

So, your argument here is that it would be good because you like that kind of content? You also bring up the nebulous idea of “adventure” which I addressed in my second post.

@Helspites, Be as aggressive as you need to be, you seem to be talking about how this wouldn’t work but please give a better idea for how they can energize these zones...or at minimu and I suggested a zone. Talking negatively is all good but if that’s all your offering move along or present what you think would work. I can tell you FFXI did this and it worked well, granted that wasn’t the casual playground that FFXIV has become.

The point is I have been playing since day one, love the game, and would like to see something offered to those of us interested in content like this. Ppl who don’t want it, don’t go into the zone, I’d prefer it that way honestly. Don’t get n the (go do raids talk either) after 5 years many of us get tired of doing the same types of content. It’s not for a lack of engaging in it.

Okay, your argument here is that those who don't like it should go away. That'll certainly encourage some discussion. Now, to be fair, you do cite an example of a game in which this sort of content worked out, but as I pointed out in my third post, FF11 was a product of it's time. The MMO genre has evolved since then, making it a bad point of comparison. You have yet to counter this particular argument.

Now, this next post wasn't written in reply to me, but let's take a look at how you responded to someone else disagreeing that this kind of content should be in the game

@Valkyrie_Lenneth;
So many people are “dooming” this type of content. Why can’t this be an optional area, but within the overworld, and if you hate the idea and feel it’s annoying or tedious....don’t do it.

Again, your argument seems to be “if you don't like it, don't do it.” An idea which you bring up again and again in quite a few of your posts.

Finally, your last response to me is

@HelSpites It’s also worth mentioning again that if you don’t like it don’t do it...very simple. I know this is going to come as a super shock to you but we don’t all think as you do and we sure as hell do not all want the same type of content....stuck to the same shit we have been doing for 5 years if that’s what you want.

Again, “if you don't like it, don't do it”.

I think I'm detecting a pattern here. You call my arguments repetitious and say that I'm trying to shove my ideas down people's throats, but at no point do you actually engage in the discussion. I'm not entirely sure you understand how discourse works.

You put out an idea. I disagreed with the idea and explained why it wouldn't work. Now let's take a look at all of the posts where you either disagree that my arguments are problems and explain why they're non-issues, or concede that they would be a problem and suggest a way to fix it.

Look at that. There are none. Did you actually intend to have any sort of discourse or did you just want to post an idea and expect people to come in and pat your back and say “Yeah, you're totally right!”

[BreyVoreas93]

Wow, I have to give you credit on this lol. You went way further than I would have but your point is taken I was unfair in my assessment of your responses, and tbh of course I would love for the idea to work, I can’t tell you how it would, and I’m with the small crowd that would love to see a return to how FFXI was but like you said maybe that is not possible at this point. Wasn’t interested in starting anything with anyone so I’ll take that on me, I should have really been more open an actual discussion....the fact of the matter is I’m not sure what this kind of content would look like outside FFXI and WOW, I would not have a lot of ideas that haven’t been done. Sadly, maybe there is no real way of making more of the world of FFXIV.

[BreyVoreas93]

Does anyone see a content like Besieged working in the open world??

[ElHeggunte]

Does anyone see a content like Besieged working in the open world??

Yes. Behests in 1.0 were basically Besieged in miniature. There's also the Attack on Highbridge string of FATEs in Eastern Thanalan that are quite similar in concept and change according to how well you do. So long as it's not overly intrusive something like Besieged would work just fine. I actually used to have an entire document written up on the subject detailing exactly how a similar concept would work that I wrote back in HW when someone had made a related thread, but then I never posted it because I got bored and then forgot all about the thread. I can't even remember exactly what the thread was about. Wish I could find where I put the document though.