How Do You Feel When Old Content Is Made Easier?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

As for keeping old difficulty, people say they want hard stuff, but leave after the first wipe. FFXI had hard stuff, but they also had easier stuff or different stuff as an alternative. Here there really isn't alternatives to story mode or endgame mode. So if you make it hard, people are going to get roadblocked and have nowhere else to go.

That isn't necessarily true. Generally speaking, people asking for casual content to be more difficult are not looking for something which will stomp their face in, but something that actually requires a pulse. Right now the overwhelming majority of content scarcely demands more than you to be awake, which is why when sudden difficulty spikes do occur, it throws people for a loop. I know you love arguing to the contrary, however I think it's pretty telling when a friend and I purposely only healed Phantom Train normal and I literally could have AFK'd to make a sandwich. I was that useless. Somehow, I think we can have difficulty above that without going overboard.

[Vidu]

That isn't necessarily true. Generally speaking, people asking for casual content to be more difficult are not looking for something which will stomp their face in, but something that actually requires a pulse. Right now the overwhelming majority of content scarcely demands more than you to be awake, which is why when sudden difficulty spikes do occur, it throws people for a loop. I know you love arguing to the contrary, however I think it's pretty telling when a friend and I purposely only healed Phantom Train normal and I literally could have AFK'd to make a sandwich. I was that useless. Somehow, I think we can have difficulty above that without going overboard.

To second that:
Some content doesnt even need you to be awake, depending on your role...
When I'm really tired, I run content on my scholar. I've literally fallen asleep for 10-30 seconds during runs and it didnt matter in the slightest.

Once I "healed" a Halatali NM run for friends, again as scholar. I was afk for the whole thing except for the parts when you have to interact with the "teleporters". My fairy did quite fine by herself - and sure, I could have cast dps-spells and I usually do, but thats not so much better.
I went through Gubal NM earlier - throwing out one Adlo before each pull and then letting the fairy do her thing was enough, while I was spamming Broil...
Thats not hard stuff - thats braindead easy stuff.

[RiyahArp]

That isn't necessarily true. Generally speaking, people asking for casual content to be more difficult are not looking for something which will stomp their face in, but something that actually requires a pulse.

Some people's "requires a pulse" is others "stomp your face in." remember, the endgame crowd thinks byakko ex is incredibly easy. Increasngly they thnk only the last two turns and utlimate are the only "hard" content in this game.

The dungeons are fine. They are easy, yes, but that means I can go in with a job i am rusty at to practice my full 70 kit again without worrying i will wipe the run.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Some people's "requires a pulse" is others "stomp your face in." remember, the endgame crowd thinks byakko ex is incredibly easy. Increasngly they thnk only the last two turns and utlimate are the only "hard" content in this game.

The dungeons are fine. They are easy, yes, but that means I can go in with a job i am rusty at to practice my full 70 kit again without worrying i will wipe the run.

Name me one current dungeon that is even remotely challenging. I have ran Swallow's Compass, the most recent dungeon, with multiple people of varying skill and the healing requirements are so laughably low most of them spent 90% of the run DPSing. As for Byakko EX. He is easy. Just because players are bad doesn't change that fact. Speaking from my own experience, I cleared him after three pulls on a job outside my main (Warrior) having only a vague idea of his mechanics. And I was at ilvl. All it took was learning placements and listening to advice from the friends I ran it with. Anyone can do that. In fact, I have been teaching an "uptime" strat for Tsukiyomi. The only time it's ever been an issue is when people refuse to listen or learn from their mistakes.

You can literally spam 1-2-3 and clear every single dungeon in the game. If I don't do wall to wall pulls, I may as well remove all my tank CDs. They are functionally useless. Likewise, I am basically a glorified DPS on healers unless the tanks do super pulls. Even a good chunk of big pulls aren't all that difficult if you're remotely decent.

This sentiment, by the way, is not simply my own. It's shared amongst casual raiders. NEST of all groups mocked the lackluster challenge of Alte Roite and meme'd on Phantom Train. Both may be harder than actually else the game offers but they aren't difficult per se. They're fun fights, I will grant you that, but not overly difficult.

[RiyahArp]

This sentiment, by the way, is not simply my own. It's shared amongst casual raiders.

You know, I'm doing trial roulette tonight, and i'm getting castrim flummins. One of my runs had one of the healers say at start "well, thirteenth time is the charm," which is the amount of failed runs he did before a clear. Another I came in as a dps on the 30 min mark. You'd be surprised at how often you can come in to a failed run on some of the harder casual content, like launch 24 mans. Now imagine if every single one of those things gets harder.

I don't care if raiders think casual content is too easy. It will always be easy for them, there's no way they can make dungeons equal to beginning tiers of savage, which you yourself says is no challenge. If they did that, it would hurt others far more than it helps.

[HyoMinPark]

You know, I'm doing trial roulette tonight, and i'm getting castrim flummins. One of my runs had one of the healers say at start "well, thirteenth time is the charm," which is the amount of failed runs he did before a clear. Another I came in as a dps on the 30 min mark. You'd be surprised at how often you can come in to a failed run on some of the harder casual content, like launch 24 mans. Now imagine if every single one of those things gets harder.

Failed runs doesn’t mean the content is even hard; just that players are either impatient or flat-out bad. That doesn’t make the content hard mechanically. Tsuku is actually good in its design as it requires you to actually pay attention...unlike most content in this game. Final Steps of Faith, Royal Menagerie, and Weeping City were the same way, and what do they all have in common? People whining that they’re “too hard”...because they actually have to pay attention and can’t just barrel through it. In my opinion, all four are the perfect difficulty for this game, especially since they are all supposed to be done at max level for their relative expansions—you know, when people are supposed to have an inkling of how to play their class.

That being said, none of these pieces of content were hard in the way you like to put it (i.e., “Savage-level difficulty”)—they were just more difficult than the majority of other MSQ-related content that required little to no thought to it.

I don't care if raiders think casual content is too easy. It will always be easy for them, there's no way they can make dungeons equal to beginning tiers of savage, which you yourself says is no challenge. If they did that, it would hurt others far more than it helps.

You’re speaking in extremes again—please quote where anyone in this thread has asked for Savage-level difficulty for dungeons. I want them to bring back dungeons more akin to original Amdapor Keep and Pharos Sirius...especially since they’re supposed to be “Expert” level dungeons. I don’t want more Kugane Castles and Swallow’s Compasses where I don’t have to actually heal the tank, much less the party outside of 1 GCD.

[RiyahArp]

You’re speaking in extremes again—please quote where anyone in this thread has asked for Savage-level difficulty for dungeons. I want them to bring back dungeons more akin to original Amdapor Keep and Pharos Sirius

Cool, people would just do the same things they did back then and leave on pop. Actually these days you don't even need to queue for expert, so maybe they would just ignore it like they do 50/60 roulettes.

If you want hard 4 man content, well, you have challenge floors both in POTD and heaven on high.

As for Tsukiyomi. This is what happens when you have sudden difficulty spikes, though more often than not I see players who simply refuse to pay attention.

it has nothing to do wiith that. Its the last phase and the speed of the mechanics, as well as how icky they are rendered. Not many story fights stack multiple mechanics on top of each other, nor are they particularly fast. You also have issues with tankbusters happening right after the fast mechanic phase, and the entire fight requires a lot heavier knowledge of positioning and awareness then most others. This is why SE made sure to give every attack audio cues to help players anticipate. It's a tedious fight once you get past the first clear, just like shin is.

And yeah, you think you are complaining about idiots now, wait till regular players keep screwing up your runs cause the content is hard for them. I have the nasty suspicious the monster hunter event might just be this; i wouldnt put it past yoshi to make it an ex-trial because the original game is so hardcore.

[HyoMinPark]

Cool, people would just do the same things they did back then and leave on pop. Actually these days you don't even need to queue for expert, so maybe they would just ignore it like they do 50/60 roulettes.

50/60 Roulette is largely ignored because the rewards tied to the roulette are extremely lackluster, not because the dungeons in there are any sort of hard difficulty. They’re just as faceroll as everything else, especially now when we blatantly overgear them, and where they had been nerfed with the onset of a new expansion; or, in the case of Amdapor and Pharos, where they were previously nerfed so hard they barely resemble anything of their former selves.

If you want hard 4 man content, well, you have challenge floors both in POTD and heaven on high.

And why do those two have to be the only challenging pieces of 4-man content?

it has nothing to do wiith that. Its the last phase and the speed of the mechanics, as well as how icky they are rendered. Not many story fights stack multiple mechanics on top of each other, nor are they particularly fast. You also have issues with tankbusters happening right after the fast mechanic phase, and the entire fight requires a lot heavier knowledge of positioning and awareness then most others. This is why SE made sure to give every attack audio cues to help players anticipate. It's a tedious fight once you get past the first clear, just like shin is.

Well, of course they should be faster-paced—you’re doing the content at level cap, where you’re supposed to have a decent knowledge of the way your class functions. Why should level 70 content be as easy as level 15 content? Why should any piece of level 70 content be easier than something like Aurum Vale, a level 47 dungeon?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

it has nothing to do wiith that. Its the last phase and the speed of the mechanics, as well as how icky they are rendered. Not many story fights stack multiple mechanics on top of each other, nor are they particularly fast. You also have issues with tankbusters happening right after the fast mechanic phase, and the entire fight requires a lot heavier knowledge of positioning and awareness then most others. This is why SE made sure to give every attack audio cues to help players anticipate. It's a tedious fight once you get past the first clear, just like shin is.

And yeah, you think you are complaining about idiots now, wait till regular players keep screwing up your runs cause the content is hard for them. I have the nasty suspicious the monster hunter event might just be this; i wouldnt put it past yoshi to make it an ex-trial because the original game is so hardcore.

Welcome to level 70? Mechanics should increase in tempo as you progress otherwise what's even the point? Nothing Tsukiyomi does hasn't been seen prior except the rotating debuffs. Her fan mechanic are a repeat of Shiva; the cleave is a repeat of Zurvan; the stack mechanics are standard. For those inexperienced, it may seem overwhelming, but if people actually learned from their mistakes, it's hardly difficult. And if all else fails, you have guides available such as Mizzteq or MrHappy. The issue is many people don't want to learn, they want faceroll easy content they can spam a couple buttons and clear.

And I suppose we should tune everything so someone who can't be bothered to read party chat can still play? Frankly, I would welcome a wipe or two in dungeons because mechanics actually demanded something from the playerbase. At least that would be more interesting than wall to wall pulls you aoe down. Alas, when the devs have to readjust Heavy Thrust because doing a Heavy Thrust -> Chaos Thrust combo -> Full Thrust combo without allowing it to fall off is too difficult. Maybe I ask too much...

[Bourne_Endeavor]

You know, I'm doing trial roulette tonight, and i'm getting castrim flummins. One of my runs had one of the healers say at start "well, thirteenth time is the charm," which is the amount of failed runs he did before a clear. Another I came in as a dps on the 30 min mark. You'd be surprised at how often you can come in to a failed run on some of the harder casual content, like launch 24 mans. Now imagine if every single one of those things gets harder.

I don't care if raiders think casual content is too easy. It will always be easy for them, there's no way they can make dungeons equal to beginning tiers of savage, which you yourself says is no challenge. If they did that, it would hurt others far more than it helps.

Do quote where I made even a single mention of savage level dungeons. In fact, I believe I argued the contrary—saying I wanted something that requires more than a pulse. We have spoke about this time and again yet you continue to present a dichotomy. Was The Vault savage tier? Because I have mentioned it numerous times as a good example for dungeon difficulty. Despite what you may think, I'm not actually asking for dungeons which I will find difficult because, no, they won't be something overly difficult for me. That doesn't mean they cannot be interesting. Is it so much to ask dungeons actually require healers to heal? Even as a raider, I shouldn't be able to keep a tank alive through big pulls with Regen and the occasional Tetra yet Swallow's Compass that undertuned. And I did it at roughly i355. So you can't even use raid gear as an excuse.

As for Tsukiyomi. This is what happens when you have sudden difficulty spikes, though more often than not I see players who simply refuse to pay attention. I had a Warrior in my first Shinryu run who died five times out of six to Tidal Wave and had the audacity to whine the healers were ruining his fun when they finally lost patience after explaining no less than three times how to do the mechanics. According to you, we should nerf Shinryu so idiots like that can faceroll through. No wonder less and less people want to queue for things.