Selling Ultimate Weapon Ultima Is Apparently Not Against the ToS

[Rubiss]

You conveniently omitted my follow-up question that was meant to go along with that question:



That is my position: why are people getting so concerned with what others do?

So you're answering the question with another question. Okay. It's against the rules. Is that enough of a reason? Now will you answer the original question I posed to you, or are you going to throw out another question to deflect?

[HyoMinPark]

So you're answering the question with another question. Okay. It's against the rules. Is that enough of a reason? Now will you answer the original question I posed to you, or are you going to throw out another question to deflect?

Go back and read my edit, thank you. Because I had to edit in more thanks to character limits.

Here you go:

I don't understand the fascination people these days seem to have with what other people do. And I don't really understand why some people I see discussing this topic--people that do not even raid/participate in the content, or even care about it--suddenly start caring when content sales are involved. Is this really about it being a ToS violation only?

Moral objections are fine; I have objections about things, but there's no point in voicing them when they fall on deaf ears. I just don't understand why people feel the need to start crusades over something like this when it's very clear nothing will be done about it. Just like nothing is ever done about the other ToS violations. So I drop it and don't concern myself with it.

Re: “against the rules” — so are a myriad of other things. Are you going to start demanding that the rules are enforced with regards to them as well?

[Vidu]

You've yet to explain this and are continuing to dodge the question. Why does someone have to have cleared content to discuss RMT practices, violations of terms of service and the morals behind buying and selling content clears?

I'm clearly not HyoMin, but I'd like to present you my thoughts on the matter: The only real reason for someone to get upset/worked up or actually even care about how someone else is getting their clear of that content is "It devalues my achievment if someone else just goes and buys it" - if you havent killed the content in question and havent achieved anything related to it, there is nothing for you to be concerend about. It doesnt devalue anything you achieved, because you never did.
I have a bit of sympathy for those people who actually clear the content by themself - but someone who cant really be concered about their achievment being devalued...? Just getting worked up on the behalf of people who might not even care?

You mention the violation of the ToS - and I assume you refer to the "no account sharing"-policy here - its worth noticing that thats most likely in there so SE wont be responsible in case someone shares their account with someone else and that person just runs with it - its more "You agreed to not share your information, but you did, so we wont help you to get it back" - why else would they care who you share your account with?

In regards to the RMT that we in general most likely all consider annoying: I consider it annoying when its shout-chat trying to sell me gil. If a PF is about trading gil, real money or baby-bunnies for a clear doesnt matter to me.

I'm not fussed about content selling myself either, but I agree with HyoMin: Why are you - and other people - so concerned about what other people do with their time and money when there is no negative effect on your own gameing experience?
If you havent cleared the fights yourself you're not even having your bragging rights cheapend by someone else showing off that shiny Ultimate-Weapon.

I dont understand why you're fighting a fight that doesnt even really concern you - besides maybe seeing those adds in PF, but at the same time I'm seeing far worse and annoying stuff in there on a daily basis...

[Jijifli]

I'm clearly not HyoMin, but I'd like to present you my thoughts on the matter: The only real reason for someone to get upset/worked up or actually even care about how someone else is getting their clear of that content is "It devalues my achievment if someone else just goes and buys it" - if you havent killed the content in question and havent achieved anything related to it, there is nothing for you to be concerend about. It doesnt devalue anything you achieved, because you never did.

You know these RMT sellings aren't just about UWU and O8S, right? Those are just the ones they put in game.

People do sell accounts, accounts with full 70 everything. Accounts with enough item level to do savage. If I just joined the game, and found out about this, and of course am upset about it, would my opinion be invalidated because I just joined and didn't have a character with 70 everything?

That's what Rubiss's point is. Just because someone hasn't gone into UWU, doesn't mean their opinion on UWU RMT is not invalid. There are houses purchased with pure RMT money, denying people a house. But they don't have a house, so they can't comment on it I guess.

But what do I know. I haven't seen UWU so my opinion's worth less than someone who paid $1200 for it.

[Vidu]

You know these RMT sellings aren't just about UWU and O8S, right? Those are just the ones they put in game.

People do sell accounts, accounts with full 70 everything. Accounts with enough item level to do savage. If I just joined the game, and found out about this, and of course am upset about it, would my opinion be invalidated because I just joined and didn't have a character with 70 everything?

That's what Rubiss's point is. Just because someone hasn't gone into UWU, doesn't mean their opinion on UWU RMT is not invalid. There are houses purchased with pure RMT money, denying people a house. But they don't have a house, so they can't comment on it I guess.

But what do I know. I haven't seen UWU so my opinion's worth less than someone who paid $1200 for it.

But how does any of that cheapen YOUR experience with the game?

Thats my point - how does it make YOU have less fun with the game, less fun playing throught the story, leveling up etc. when someone else just skips that by paying money for it?

Mind you, I'm not a fan of that either, but it also doesnt cheapen my experience of the game if someone else bought their account.

The only tiny point I can grant you is the housing-thing - but by now selling houses, wether if it is for real or ingame money, has become more difficult anyways (and gil is so easy to come by that I wouldnt really consider paying for houses with RMT-money such a strong point.)

At the end of the day: What do YOU lose by someone else throwing money at someone else to do something for them? Except for the houses nothing is really limited in this game - someone else getting the UWU-clear isnt denying you going in there and doing it legit. Someone else paying for an all level 70 character isnt preventing you from achieving that yourself.

Maybe my mind just works differently, but I dont see why it matters how someone else got something in the game...

[HyoMinPark]

You know these RMT sellings aren't just about UWU and O8S, right? Those are just the ones they put in game.

People do sell accounts, accounts with full 70 everything. Accounts with enough item level to do savage. If I just joined the game, and found out about this, and of course am upset about it, would my opinion be invalidated because I just joined and didn't have a character with 70 everything?

That's what Rubiss's point is. Just because someone hasn't gone into UWU, doesn't mean their opinion on UWU RMT is not invalid. There are houses purchased with pure RMT money, denying people a house. But they don't have a house, so they can't comment on it I guess.

But what do I know. I haven't seen UWU so my opinion's worth less than someone who paid $1200 for it.

My personal opinion is why care at all? It expands way past what AxlStream’s opinion of “You haven’t cleared God, why care about UwU” opinion, even though I agree to an extent and see the point he is trying to make.

You cannot control what strangers do with their money. They want to buy an account? A Sigmascape clear? An UCoB/UwU clear? Well, alright then. It’s their money, their choice; I certainly wish I had a few hundred to a few grand to throw around, but it’s whatever at the end of the day. I cannot do anything to stop them. So I just don’t care, and I don’t really understand why others do when making threads about this sort of thing will not stop the practice.



I think what Vidu and I are both getting at is part-“why care about what others do with their money/do in general” and part-“people fail to care about things like Savage/Utlimate in general, or don’t participate in the content usually, but now they suddenly start caring when content selling is involved”.

ADDITION: Re—what Vidu is saying about cheapening experiences-

I also agree with this point. What someone else does doesn’t cheapen things that I have earned in this game. If anything, I see it as they make mine even more worthwhile—I had the skill to clear the content that they had to pay money for, be it real money or gil; I earned my clears, and they bought theirs. I made my account with all its 70s, and they paid someone else for theirs. Doesn’t cheapen all the time and effort I put into it at all.

I think the only one who can devalue their own experiences is themselves. But I suppose that’s just me.

[Alleo]

That is my point: why are people getting so concerned with what others do? I don't understand the fascination people these days seem to have with what other people do. And I don't really understand why some people I see discussing this topic--people that do not even raid/participate in the content, or even care about it--suddenly start caring when content sales are involved. Is this really about it being a ToS violation only?

.

Yes for some of us its because they are going against the ToS in such an obvious way and yet will probably never be punished. How can we truly go around and want bots that sell Gil for real money banned if we look away when players are doing the same just instead of gil its content. And maybe a part of us are also just a bit angry because one of the FC that does that also has players that use cheats in PVP and sell ranks in it.

Its just utterly frustrating to have people be sometimes banned for smaller things and yet those that go twice against the ToS (RMT and account sharing) are going to continue with it. Its already bad that they on one hand punish someone if they just talk about using a parser in a party and some reported them for that and them ignoring all the obvious parser uses from the streamers even when it included shout outs for mechanics which seemingly disappointed Yoshida a bit.

For me that is just a double standard. Either you allow RMT thus both bots and those people selling can exist or you dont. And either you are fine with a parser as long as nobody is attacked for their numbers or you are not.

I mean if its all about "why care about this, it does not cheapen your experience" then why not just let SE get something out of this by selling those weapons in the mog station? At least those that want just the look of the weapon can simply buy it, SE gets money, its cheaper than buying it from those raiders and all the rest should not care because it does not cheapen the experience. Also why did people want Ultima to stay synch? If it does not cheapen the experience one expansion later than I hope nobody would complain if they decided to still make it unsynch. (Since a recent interview have pointed out that they still discuss this point)

[KisaiTenshi]

My personal opinion is why care at all?

...

I think the only one who can devalue their own experiences is themselves. But I suppose that’s just me.

If it was a solo game, you'd have a point, but it's not a solo game, your experience is shared with others, and thus anything you do to destroy the experience of others is something is a negative. RMT is not "one person selling a tv out of the back of their car", it's someone parking a van on the highway, blocking 2 lanes of traffic with "STOLEN HELICOPTERS ARE FASTER, BUY ONE HERE".

The RMT people cause the very problem they are trying to sell a solution to.

[Jijifli]

My personal opinion is why care at all? It expands way past what AxlStream’s opinion of “You haven’t cleared God, why care about UwU” opinion, even though I agree to an extent and see the point he is trying to make.

You cannot control what strangers do with their money. They want to buy an account? A Sigmascape clear? An UCoB/UwU clear? Well, alright then. It’s their money, their choice; I certainly wish I had a few hundred to a few grand to throw around, but it’s whatever at the end of the day. I cannot do anything to stop them. So I just don’t care, and I don’t really understand why others do when making threads about this sort of thing will not stop the practice.

And this is why a lot more than RMT for selling clears is happening despite ToS. I'm sitting here playing with people who outright admit in chat that they run bots, both leveling and gather bots. Leveling to sell the accounts, and the bots to make gil to sell for RMT. Nothing's done about them. We have players openly showing hacks, including a stated person using them in pvp and then selling rank boosts with it. But I guess I shouldn't care because that's their money, not mine.

Honestly it's so sad that emoting multiple times is taken more seriously than RMT...

[HyoMinPark]

And this is why a lot more than RMT for selling clears is happening despite ToS. I'm sitting here playing with people who outright admit in chat that they run bots, both leveling and gather bots. Leveling to sell the accounts, and the bots to make gil to sell for RMT. Nothing's done about them. We have players openly showing hacks, including a stated person using them in pvp and then selling rank boosts with it. But I guess I shouldn't care because that's their money, not mine.

Honestly it's so sad that emoting multiple times is taken more seriously than RMT...

I can understand the frustration, but that frustration is the very reason why I, personally, adopt the “why care” attitude.

I spent time reporting people for running crafting/gathering bots on my server because they were blatantly crashing the consumables market. Nothing was ever done about them despite my reports—I never even got a GM to answer any of them outside of the stock reply the game sends you, and the players walked away unscathed. I wasn’t the only one reporting them. So I decided to just stop bothering with it because you cannot make those who have the power to change things actually do the changing.

I still disagree with the practices, but I have stopped putting forth the effort to report them because nothing is ever done about them. So I just save myself the time and the effort, and opt to continue to play the game as I have always played it—just now with less caring about things that are completely out of my control. Feel free to care if you want to; I just don’t see the reason to when I cannot control other people—how they take action against infractions, how they act, how they spend their money, any of it. I’d rather focus my energies on things I can control for my own peace of mind.

PvE content selling was never something that has bothered me, because I don’t need to partake in it to get what I want—I have more than enough skill to earn my clears, and even if I couldn’t, well I have much better things to spend my money on anyways. And others participating in buying Savage or UwU clears do not devalue my own clears. I can at least understand PvP rank sales because they are more like a “competitive sport” (however loosely you want to apply that term), so I can (somehow, still very loosely) liken it to someone cheating in something like the Olypmics to steal first place from someone who earned it. But PvE doesn’t have rankings like that, and someone buying an UwU clear in no way prevents you (general you) from also getting one, nor should it devalue the time and effort you put into it. They only belittle the achievement if you let them, and if such an achievement is so easily devalued, then just what kind of stock was placed in it from the beginning?

I’m stepping out of this thread now because it’s just going to be more back and forths of clashing opinions. People who want to discuss it more are free to ping me on Discord if they really want to.