What makes a Dark Knight?

[Chrono_Rising]

I think this is a wonderful write up! I would like to add, that many of the themes presented here are also seen in Tactic Ogre's Terror Knight, which I'm convinced the Heavensward Dark Knight is partly inspired from. Especially considering its greatsword usage, tankiness, and even the blatant armor set from the series itself. This supports your argument however, especially with the emphasis on draining and enfeeblements. While their counterpart tank, the Knight, used Phalanx to cut their damage down to single digits and created a wall that units could not move past, Terror Knights exhibited an aura of fear and caused enemies stats to dramatically decrease by being hit, or even just by being around them.

Thanks for sharing, this is another game I'll have to look into. I agree reading about the classes this does seem like an even earlier example of a dark knight like job being implemented.

DRK here has more in common with knight-errants. It's not really about debilitating your foes or breaking them. It's about finding your voice and living in accordance with your inner sense of justice. 'Sacrifice' is about giving up your self-imposed constraints and learning to live freely. It's not about dying in servitude to another's ideals.

I have to disagree here as this is not the lesson of the 30 - 50 job quest. Potential spoilers:

The 30 - 50 job quests is our attunement to the darkside, and we are introduced to our purpose: justice. This is a personal justice, and as such this independence requires strength, and strength requires sacrifice. What isn’t clear is what we are sacrificing. Through the job quests we attune to listen to a voice which calls us, which is later revealed to be our own voice telling us what it is we truly desire.

That is what is meant by:
A chorus of voices cries out for a hero, and she comes. She smiles. She nods. And she remains silent... But she too has a voice... I will be heard... Listen to my voice. Listen to your heartbeat.
You are giving up following this voice to play the part of the hero. And this is what we are sacrificing, the ability to follow our own path and listen to our own voice, in this case to walk the path of the hero, and that sacrifice serves as the fuel for the pain, rage, and other dark emotions which we are to tap into for strength.

"Serve... Save... Slave... Slay... I've sins aplenty, aye, but regrets? Not so much."

Grit and Tenacity are also important themes here. Dark Knights in FFXIV are often depicted as unyielding when fighting for what they believe in. Consider the following:

I agree that there is certainly something to be said for grit and tenacity, but I believe this is also answering the question of was our sacrifice worth it, and the answer of our darkside is a yes.

I also agree that dark knight is something of a mix between several different jobs, but I in no way intend to imply that I think all dark knights problems would be solved by going back to FFXI. Rather, I intend to imply that our skills on their own would not be that dark if we renamed them.

If we renamed Dark Passenger to Chained Moogle Poms, I’m sure you can see the visual similarity, what would identify this as a dark skill? Perhaps the blind ability might tip us off. If we renamed Dark Arts to Focus, what would make this stand out as a darkside ability. This one is difficult, I really see nothing that makes this “Dark” except that it uses mana and therefore might indicate sacrifice again. However, I still do not see mana as a meaningful sacrifice in the current implementation. Abilities like dark mind or TBN might be nods to some intersections with other classed, but I would still argue that there is not much that says “dark” about dark knight’s kit.

[WhyAmIHere]

A kit that has little self-contained synergy, no burst, a lot of if/or, and a cool aura.

[Lyth]

...

I wanted to avoid going too heavily into the lore, but here goes.

Warning! Spoilers: DRK job quests

As the Warrior of Light, you're no stranger to helping the poor and the downtrodden, while delivering justice to those that oppress them. You and your companions make countless sacrifices for the sake of others over the course of your journey. If that was all there was to being a dark knight, then there would be nothing to learn from the questline.

It's worth noting that while the early DRK quests have you helping others as you always do, Fray isn't satisfied with your work and progressively gets more irritated with each decision to blindly step in and do whatever is asked.

"Your affinity with your darkside grows stronger by the day. And yet...there is a hesitation. Listen to me. You have performed great deeds and saved countless people. You are a hero to the realm... But you are no dark knight.

A dark knight accepts that he cannot save everyone─that sometimes, he is fortunate just to save himself. Sacrifice, is to renounce that which binds you. To recognize that which matters─and forsake all that does not. At the very least, you must realize that you cannot continue to carry all these burdens...

Unless you wish to die a slave."

There's a quest very early on which illustrates this. You get sent out on a fetch quest to recover a merchant's stolen goods. When you help him out, he complains that his goods were damaged by your handling of them and demands payment. Fray (i.e. you) tell him off, causing him to run away in fear.

NB. It's worth going back and redoing these quests a second time with the knowledge that every time that Fray speaks, it's actually your own character speaking (or more specifically, the "embodiment of [your] good sense and pragmatism"). This quest chain is ingenious.

The point behind this is that it's meaningless to go out and simply accept every request that comes your way. There are plenty of people who want to take advantage of the Warrior of Light to suit their own ends.

"A fantastic display of willful ignorance... Wipe the slate clean. Forgive and forget! Convince yourselves that she can be controlled...
The Warrior of Light! Our Weapon of Light!"

The Warrior of Light is a voiceless character. This is partially a narrative device to allow us to insert ourselves into the story. The dark knight storyline is about reclaiming your voice. You are more than a weapon of Hydaelyn, of Eorzea. In finding your inner voice, you find freedom to act, not because you are obliged to, but because you want to.

"On a throne of bone she waits... Serve... Save... Slave... Slay...
They come to entreat her judgment... Serve... Save... Slave... Slay...
One by one, in solemn procession...

A chorus of voices cries out for a hero, and she comes. She smiles. She nods. And she remains silent...
But she too has a voice...
I will be heard..."

The act of sacrifice that you write about is an act of letting go. As Fray said earlier, "Sacrifice, is to renounce that which binds you." In the abyss, you relinquish the hold that the rest of the world has over you. It's about acting in accordance with your own desires, and being true to yourself. To silence this voice is to deny yourself, to deny who you are.

"...You stand at the precipice, but do not fear the fall. Cast yourself into the abyss, and you shall soar above, free at last. There are other lands than these─lands where we are not known. Ask, and we shall quit this place forever.
Only when you have renounced everything are you free to do anything. Let the darkness guide you and set you free."

This also means freeing yourself from your regrets. The path that you have taken to become the Warrior of Light was filled with the suffering of others. Friends that you lost. People who you could not save.

"So many broken by this world, then by you. So, so many…
Woe betide the man who stands opposed to the Weapon of Light, for death will be his reward. Death for him and his kin and all he holds dear. Woe betide the man who stands with the Weapon of Light, for death will be his reward. Death for him and his kin and all that he holds dear.
Like sands through the hourglass, everything we fight so desperately to protect slips through our fingers… and what remains… what remains… Is us. Only us, and the memory of our sin.”

This isn't specific to dark knights. In choosing to become the "Weapon of Light", you've brought about as much harm as good. To become a dark knight means to acknowledge your failures, and accept the responsibility of your actions, so that both you and your will to act are unified in purpose. "A house divided cannot stand."

"Serve… Save… Slave… Slay… I’ve sins aplenty, aye, but regrets? Not so much.

Such is our lot. Such is the fate of all who are born – to suffer and to die. Do not seek forgiveness, for it will not ease the burden. It weighs as it should."

FFXIV is a massive world, filled with stories. Nearly all of them, including ones from the other job questlines, flesh out different people that we meet along our journey. The Dark Knight questline is our story. It gives our character a voice, a soul. That's why it's probably the single most compelling story of all.

"To walk the path is to suffer. To sacrifice. Justice demands no less.
But we must never lose sight of why we chose to walk it."

That last sentence is what differentiates us. We all made sacrifices to get this far. Becoming a Dark Knight showed us who we are, and why we chose to walk this path.

If we renamed Dark Passenger to Chained Moogle Poms, I’m sure you can see the visual similarity, what would identify this as a dark skill?

Warning! Spoilers: DRK job quests (One more outtake!)

"Ahhh, I think I'm beginning to understand this whole “darkness” concept, kupo!
Harnessing the power of your emotions or some such, yes? I'm reminded of an ancient legend about a moogle named Mog─rather simple name, I know, but those were simpler times, kupo! Anyway, Mog had a penchant for dancing, and─

Wait, wait. What does dancing have to do with the dark arts?

Everything, kupo! Everything! The point is, your master was absolutely right when he told you to “submit to the flame.” You just never figured out what he meant by it."

4.x
Actions have been adjusted as follows:

Dark Knight
Dark Passenger has been renamed to Chained Moogle Poms.

Couldn't resist.

Lore aside, I can see why the concept of high-risk, high-reward gameplay appeals, but historically we've gone the high-risk, low-reward route, while other jobs have gone the low-risk, high-reward route. I think we've sacrificed enough, this expansion. Let's meet somewhere in the middle.

[Chrono_Rising]

snip

There are many interpretations, and I don’t think it will ever be 100% clear. But I do not view the story quest for dark knight in the same way. Spoilers.

I agree that the dark knight quest is best played twice, or at least viewed twice in its entirety given the nature of Fray as really being an aspect of ourselves. The 30 - 50 Dark Knight quest deals with answering a question:

‘The threshold we refuse to cross is a line we draw for ourselves. We fear the consequences, and people suffer for our indecision. Everyone who held that crystal came to conquer that fear, and become who they wanted to be. That knight was the first. Will you be the next?’

This is the beginning of our level 30 quest, and it isn’t answered until level 50. We came to Eorzea to be an adventurer, we became the warrior of light through our actions to save and help people in need. As Fray notes:

‘You had a sword and a soul crystal, but what you wanted was a mentor. A mentor with the gifts and the knowledge. A dark knight who could guide you on the path -- who you could aspire to become. A (man/woman) who was free to say and do things you would not.’

Fray represents our temptation to follow our own path, and as such will say and do things which attempt to bring us closer to freeing ourselves of the shackles and views the idea of the ‘warrior of light’ with such cynicism as ‘the weapon of light’.

‘Everything up until now has been your story...

... And everything after now will be mine!’

This is a nod to the fact that we have been the warrior of light not for ourselves, but for everyone else. We did not journey to Eorzea to be the warrior of light, we only desired to live the life of an adventurer. Our desire is to live freely and our inner darkside is urging us towards this, but this is not our only option, we could also continue to live as the warrior of light. Does it have to be an either or?

Yes, we cannot both live freely and be the warrior of light, and trying to do both, like begrudgingly saving some people who were careless enough to get themselves captured and nearly tempered, doesn’t qualify us as a dark knight as we cannot both act in our own best interest and in other's best interests at all times. We cannot help a merchant and tell them we should have let Leviathan destroy the entire area just because we are upset by their expectations and keep people’s high opinion of the warrior of light; we cannot run to save people who carelessly put themselves in danger while lamenting the fact that this is what is expected of the warrior of light. I view the progression of job quests as showing us why we cannot both follow our desires and live up to a title like “The warrior of light”.

We have to make a choice, something must be sacrificed. Either we live on as the warrior of light, or, as Fray has offered, flee this land to a place where no one even knows our name.

The resolution is the level 50 quest:

‘So this is your answer...

Listen to my voice. Listen to our heartbeat. Listen...

... If this is how it must be, then so be it. But know that when you tire of this charade, I shall be here... waiting to take the reins.’

Our choice is made in a moment of silence, a moment within ourselves, and the personality offering freedom, offering to take us to a land where no one knows our name, takes a back seat. Our choice was to sacrifice our freedom, to be a hero to the realm.

However, as noted by Fray, justice demands many sacrifices, there are certainly other themes of sacrifice present, but I believe this is the choice, the sacrifice, which makes us a dark knight. There will be many sacrifices, many difficult choices, we will make on the way, and things will not always go our way.

And the 60 - 70 job quests starts this in a fitting way, staring at the home which gave a son to save us, we reflect on our actions as our soul crystal splits in two, these quests represents the regrets which we may harbor, and we meet a new aspect of ourselves in Myste who desires to make things right in a way only they can. This story wraps up in a similar way to the start, as we are welcomed as family and told we will always have a home, finally healing our own wound which we tried to close by fixing the consequences of our choices.

While you make excellent points about indirect or enfeeblement- or stat_stealing-based tanking, I have to point one thing out:

Enfeeblement, unless handled through bloat-like abilities, requires invested GCDs. You can't walk open into an immediate tankbuster that takes you more GCDs to set up for than you actually have. And unless there are AoE options for said stat-stealing or enfeeblement, it will naturally be weaker in such cases.

Just as importantly, it would likely overpower DRK as an off-tank, as they provide effective mitigation without having to weave in their defensive CDs and therefore enmity-swaps.

I'm sure it can be done in a way that will still work, but it won't be in any purist fashion, and it won't be any simple matter.

I agree, there are downsides to enfeeblement tanks, and there are advantages to them, and I believe you just listed the two biggest ones. As far as aoe issues, you could also make it so the statuses are delivered through your armor as a mechanic, in that way anything which hits you picks up the debuff reducing the OT benefit and lessening the MT disadvantage. Once could imagine things like salted earth and dark passenger being delivery options.

I think in general a mix of options is best, having a combination of damage reduction, HP buffing, and enfeeblement, though perhaps having a strong tilt towards one in particular (or two at the expense of a third) are more desirable and balanced. All three ways of dealing with damage have advantages and disadvantages, currently we see more mechanics which favor damage reduction because we have mainly damage reduction tanks, but one could imagine a world in which encounters play to all three strengths and weaknesses.

[Suratan]

I have a suggestion or rather a wish for a DRK rework with the concept "sacrifice for power" in mind:
1. Make Carve & Spit a GCD and an alternate combo finisher after Syphon Strike.
2. Make Soul Eater restore HP regardless of Grit is on or off.
3. When Darkside is active, every skill, that costs MP (example: Dark Arts) or restores MP (example: Syphon Strike), will cost/restore HP instead.
4. When Grit is active, every skill, that costs HP, will cost MP instead.
4. a) If Darkside and Grit are both active, the effect of Grit is dominant in regard of the skill costs.
5. Buff the potency of some skills when combined with Dark Arts.

With these changes, I would see the DRK as a job which toggles between Grit on (for more defensive purposes and to restore MP/HP) and Grit off (for burst-like offensive purposes) as needed. Especially with Grit turned off you will be forced to make the choice whether to burn HP for power or not. In my opinion, these choices, which are to make, are one key element of the DRK.
I just wanted to share my thoughts on this one.