Battle System Rant

[DRKoftheAzure]

I still do not understand why people hate shirk.

Unless DPS get access to provoke, they can't use it to the full potential Tanks can. Giving a tool that's best used for tankswapping to classes that already have their own equivalent (IE Diversion/Refresh&Tactician) seems wasteful to me.

Also, the reason something so critical for healing (Esuna) became a role skill is because there's absolutely no reason for there to be unique skill for each class in a role, when all the skills will just do the exact same thing. Just like Provoke and Rampart.

I don't hate Shirk, in fact more often than not I even forget that it's there in Role Action most of the time because most of the situations don't really call for tanks needing it which especially when you read what it does and and feels more like a DPS Role Action. And given that Provoke now has an AoE variant, which kinda feels pointless to have unless some DPS decided to go Leeroy Jenkins with their AoEs but that's more of a tank complaint really, and Provoke + Aggro combo was already a good way to tank swap so it was really unnecessary to give tanks Shirk and Ultimatum(Ultimatum is better than Shirk on tanks because it's an AoE Provoke)

And to fix the Esuna problem just by having heal HP on top of negative status effect removal on top of gimmick related to the job that can use Esuna.

[Ekimmak]

... and Provoke + Aggro combo was already a good way to tank swap so it was really unnecessary to give tanks Shirk and Ultimatum(Ultimatum is better than Shirk on tanks because it's an AoE Provoke)

You underestimate how useful Shirk is to the raider scene. For people who want to spend as little time in tank stance or aggro combo'ing as possible, a 25% boost to current threat is a big help. Considering how quickly I can catch up to a main tank after a round of Inner Release, being able to cut my own threat is pretty important. Ultimatum is actually what I see as pointless: it's just an aoe provoke with a longer cooldown. Large groups of mobs don't last long enough to need anything beyond Overpower/Flash/Abyssal Drain.

By that logic, why aren't Cure and Raise role actions?

Funnily enough, both WERE available for cross-class before the revamp. Cure has a higher potency than Physick to make up for the latter having a fairy helping them.

When skills have differences in order to balance them (such as proc'ing something, a different cost or a different potency) they aren't good for role skills. I'm assuming that's why Anticipation doesn't get stronger on DRK to make up for taking away Dark Dance. I can only assume Raise stopped being cross class because of Resurrection, since they didn't want to take that away from Summoner.

The only case I know of where a role skill interacts with an actual job's toolset is how Paladin gets a boost to intervention if Rampart is up, but the thing is, it's not the job changing the role skill, it's the role skill changing the job, which I believe is easier to program.

You are correct about how little choice there is. They might as well let us equip all ten at once.

[Kalinas]

Funnily enough, both WERE available for cross-class before the revamp. Cure has a higher potency than Physick to make up for the latter having a fairy helping them.

When skills have differences in order to balance them (such as proc'ing something, a different cost or a different potency) they aren't good for role skills. I'm assuming that's why Anticipation doesn't get stronger on DRK to make up for taking away Dark Dance. I can only assume Raise stopped being cross class because of Resurrection, since they didn't want to take that away from Summoner.

The only case I know of where a role skill interacts with an actual job's toolset is how Paladin gets a boost to intervention if Rampart is up, but the thing is, it's not the job changing the role skill, it's the role skill changing the job, which I believe is easier to program.

Actually Cure, Physick, and Benefic are all the same potency. The only differences are the traits that whm and ast get with them (sch has no traits on physick). Cure has a chance to proc a free Cure 2 and Benefic has a chance to make the next Benefic 2 crit heal.

Eye for an Eye used to be an arcanist (sch/smn) defensive buff, but now as a role action it's longer cool down and rng nature doesn't make it useful enough anymore. Oddly it still interacts with deployment tactics on sch, but even that is kinda meh.

I'm on the side that Esuna should be removed from role actions...tired of one hit status things that you have have to bring it for like Ex-Death doom. They could have added a trait to them to make them more interesting or powerful. Maybe whm gets a small aoe cleanse (pancea?). Give sch a warden's paean type shield.

Protect should be pulled out of role actions and then rename divine benison protect...make it physical damage and then give whm shell version for magic since they lost so many skills in 4.0.

Break should have been a spammable aoe like ice 2 was (not necessarily the same range) for low level aoe.

Largesse should boost healing overall...not just magic since that cuts off half of sch's toolkit.

Something I want to see is a version of shirk for healers...why can't we pass off our healing aggro to tanks?

[Canadane]

I don't hate Shirk, in fact more often than not I even forget that it's there in Role Action most of the time because most of the situations don't really call for tanks needing it which especially when you read what it does and and feels more like a DPS Role Action. And given that Provoke now has an AoE variant, which kinda feels pointless to have unless some DPS decided to go Leeroy Jenkins with their AoEs but that's more of a tank complaint really, and Provoke + Aggro combo was already a good way to tank swap so it was really unnecessary to give tanks Shirk and Ultimatum(Ultimatum is better than Shirk on tanks because it's an AoE Provoke)

Ultimatium isn't ranged and for bosses that you want to swap on it's usually only one target, not multiple.
I mean you're usually not going to be ranged either way, but if something goes away from you, you'll want it to hit the target and not just scream around you.

Shirk is fantastic for helping enmity. Even without tank swaps, an off tank can provoke and immediately shirk it off onto the main tank. Meaning less time in tank stance, less worry about an overzealous black mage or something.
For tank swaps it ensures you don't need to stop attacking when swapping off. It means you don't need to use an enmity combo when swapping in. It's all about the damage output.

Someone once said that Provoke is the off tank throwing up their hand for a high five. Shirk is you returning it. Don't leave your tank buddy hanging.

[Ekimmak]

Someone once said that Provoke is the off tank throwing up their hand for a high five. Shirk is you returning it. Don't leave your tank buddy hanging.

I remember that. I've yet to see the legendary Circle Shirk, where someone provokes, I shirk, then provoke, then they shirk (or vice versa).

I just wish I didn't have to keep swapping it off for dungeons.

[Canadane]

I remember that. I've yet to see the legendary Circle Shirk, where someone provokes, I shirk, then provoke, then they shirk (or vice versa).

That's the tank dream.

[DRKoftheAzure]

Someone once said that Provoke is the off tank throwing up their hand for a high five. Shirk is you returning it. Don't leave your tank buddy hanging.

I remember that. I've yet to see the legendary Circle Shirk, where someone provokes, I shirk, then provoke, then they shirk (or vice versa).

I just wish I didn't have to keep swapping it off for dungeons.

At that point you might as well have 5 DPS in your party because that is not tank swapping and is actually detrimental to learning AND clearing a fight with tank swaps with other mechanics that interfere with that strategy and doesn't really make use of BOTH tanks CDs.

[mosaicex]

At that point you might as well have 5 DPS in your party because that is not tank swapping and is actually detrimental to learning AND clearing a fight with tank swaps with other mechanics that interfere with that strategy and doesn't really make use of BOTH tanks CDs.

I don't even. Shirking does not eliminate the need for tank swapping in fights that actually require you to do so, it just makes the process smoother. I have no idea what you're trying to complain about.

[DRKoftheAzure]

I don't even. Shirking does not eliminate the need for tank swapping in fights that actually require you to do so, it just makes the process smoother. I have no idea what you're trying to complain about.

Shirk gives 25% of the user's enmity to someone(Mostly the person who is main tanking) sounds like it needs to be on Healer AND DPS role action list instead of tanks, and you certainly don't need 2 role actions dedicated to tank swapping since most fights don't even call for it especially before Stormblood where Shirk wasn't even conceived at that point. Then again I am a DRK main who is still salty about unnecessary nerfs the job shit when Stormblood launched and most role actions felt like a slap to the face if you noticed some of the animations from tank role action or recycled from DRK only actions with different looks.

[Kurando]

Shirk gives 25% of the user's enmity to someone(Mostly the person who is main tanking) sounds like it needs to be on Healer AND DPS role action list instead of tanks

Let's say this happened, what would you purpose to replace the two actions for NIN that deal with emnity (Shadewalker and Smokescreen)? I mean no one picks NIN just for those actions but it does give it some unique standing amongst the other jobs, having Shirk as cross role for DPS kinda removes that niche for them.