No cleric stance, next should be no tank stance?

[CaptainLagbeard]

They didn't so much remove Cleric Stance as they made it obsolete. Healer DPS is still about the same level it was with it by default as their damage scales Mind rather than Intelligence...

The stances on tanks, I think they could maybe give DRK a proper DPS stance rather than just making theirs be not having Grit on... And maybe rework Sword Oath, as aside from the job gauge building, there's barely a difference to just not having Shield Oath with it...

[RiyahArp]

This is wrong. No tank should EVER use the enmity combo more than necessary to get a little ahead of the second highest hate holder.

The point is more you don't hold hate through spamming your dps combo, you do so by enmity combos. If the off tank stays in tank but doesn't use enmity at all, its not as hard as you think not to pull hate. It's not useful to do so in most content, but something like eureka you do not want to be in dps stance sometimes while being a tank in the middle of of a fight. I like eureka in a sense because it breaks down the meta we have and focuses more on the player reacting to sometimes unscripted events.

[kikix12]

The point is more you don't hold hate through spamming your dps combo, you do so by enmity combos. If the off tank stays in tank but doesn't use enmity at all, its not as hard as you think not to pull hate. It's not useful to do so in most content, but something like eureka you do not want to be in dps stance sometimes while being a tank in the middle of of a fight. I like eureka in a sense because it breaks down the meta we have and focuses more on the player reacting to sometimes unscripted events.

I know what your point is. And it's wrong. A tank in tank stance does, indeed, use DPS combo to generate enmity. Depending on party composition and the DPS of the DPS roles it's entirely possible to NEVER lose enmity without using the tank combo even once during the fight. If the DPS are good but don't use enmity mitigation, or are so much better that even with enmity mitigation the tank is hard-pressed to keep up...that's the ONLY time a main tank needs to use the enmity combo in tank stance during battle. Unless there is an off-tank that thinks it's cool to be an off-tank in tank stance.

As I said, in tank stance or out of it you want to use DPS combo as much as humanly possible because it gives superior effects. Its only drawback is lack of enmity bonus, but that is covered by the tank stance. If an off-tank uses their own tank stance then it messes up with the main tank forcing him to use the worse combo when he would not need to use it otherwise.

And sorry but if melee DPS don't need "tank stance" (despite having less HP and defense naturally to boot) in Eureka, then a tank does not need it either. If they will need to actually tank something then they can always enter the tank stance then and there. Going with tank stance as an off-tank is making things harder for the main tank, worse for the party and its only upside is that the off-tank have it easier...at the expense of all others.

The stances on tanks, I think they could maybe give DRK a proper DPS stance rather than just making theirs be not having Grit on... And maybe rework Sword Oath, as aside from the job gauge building, there's barely a difference to just not having Shield Oath with it...

Dark Knights have an unusual "DPS stance". Unusual in that it can be used WITH tank stance. It's fine. They don't need anything more.

And Sword Oath adds quite a lot of damage actually. Auto-attacks are not nearly as crappy as you seem to think. I think they are 90 potency?! Or something like that. Add 75 to that and it's a bonus skill from early on in the combos.

[ManuelBravo]

Tank swaps are with provoke and shirk, tank stances do nothing there.

Do you even tank? Tank stances improve enmity and reduce damage. Provoke will only put you at top of the list. Shirk diverts enmity towards target. What good would provoke do if they can't keep enmity if it's based on stats or gear? Tanking requires some type of common sense and skill, some people who know their Job can do i ( a very small hand full of players. ) Is everyone else suppose to slow down theirs?

[RiyahArp]

No, they don't. Pure DPS won't hold hate off someone. The DPS combos don't have the huge enmity modifiers the others do. DRK for example uses the enmity combo and DA's the last hit, that's what keeps it. You use enmity combos as much as you need to hold hate when you tank, the goal being to use them as little as possible. But if you were just to do the initial hit and spam dps combos no matter what, you'd watch yourself lose hate.

[ManuelBravo]

The point is more you don't hold hate through spamming your dps combo, you do so by enmity combos. If the off tank stays in tank but doesn't use enmity at all, its not as hard as you think not to pull hate. It's not useful to do soin most content, but something like eureka you do not want to be in dps stance sometimes while being a tank in the middle of of a fight. I like eureka in a sense because it breaks down the meta we have and focuses more on the player reacting to sometimes unscripted events.

Huh? While enmity combos are only part of the equation there is more to it. If it were to it there really would not be a reason why a healer can take enmity away from a tank. Tank stances help make the job easier so that healers don't need to cast high enmity spells and over power enmity generation. On top of that it help healers get some breathing time and focus on other members. As for the DMG ratio? A tank can't over power a BLM /SUM / RDM or any other DPS that is doing more damage then their Enmity combos. Example for every enmity combo most well gear or even decent can do 1.5-3x the damage on average.

[ManuelBravo]

No, they don't. Pure DPS won't hold hate off someone. The DPS combos don't have the huge enmity modifiers the others do. DRK for example uses the enmity combo and DA's the last hit, that's what keeps it. You use enmity combos as much as you need to hold hate when you tank, the goal being to use them as little as possible. But if you were just to do the initial hit and spam dps combos no matter what, you'd watch yourself lose hate.

False, even as a OT tank I have taken hate away from main tank using OT stance stance, or using non enmity combos. DRG / NIN /MNK and most jobs can easily over power a tanks dmg ratio if they are competent enough with their job and properly geared if tank is not using tank stance.

Even in normal raids some tanks really can't do their job and while DPS uses different enmity values it can tank a mob or two compare to poor tank experience players.

[shao32]

Do you even tank? Tank stances improve enmity and reduce damage. Provoke will only put you at top of the list. Shirk diverts enmity towards target. What good would provoke do if they can't keep enmity if it's based on stats or gear? Tanking requires some type of common sense and skill, some people who know their Job can do i ( a very small hand full of players. ) Is everyone else suppose to slow down theirs?

Of course i tank, im main Drk actually, so i belive you dont understand how this work or what i mean to say.

If a OT (drk) use provoke on boss he get top on the list +1 so if the MT (pld) use shirk on the drk after the drk use provoke the drk will get on top of the list and get a 25% of extra emity from the pld having a clear lead of emity and no need of tank stance or emity combos at all.

[kikix12]

No, they don't. Pure DPS won't hold hate off someone.

Please do read carefully. You seem to be just selectively reading and forming your own story of what the other person said from some random words picked that way.

I specifically said that IN TANK STANCE using purely DPS combo MAY be enough depending on the composition of party. When doing dungeons with people that I absolutely do not trust, I just tank with tank stance as long as there's damage going on, switching only temporarily for no-damage steps or when I clearly am constantly at high health and know there is no add in that battle. And I NEVER need to use enmity combo in vast majority of these parties. Not even once, not for the opener or anywhere else. My only enmity+ skill used is the 15yalm skill that all tanks have as the very first hit of the battle. All of the remaining enmity is held simply by the bonus given by tank stance and damage, while I can go gung-ho on the boss that way. Even if I do switch out of tank stance and use DPS combo, it still takes a while before anyone else can take enmity away at that point. The current enmity generation for tanks is insane. Enmity combo is not nearly as needed as you'd think. And that doesn't even account for potential other means of increasing it (or party members decreasing theirs), like the other tank dropping THEIRS on you with Shirk (if it's not needed for a tank swap) or a ninja having a field day with his abilities.

The DPS combos don't have the huge enmity modifiers the others do.

Irrelevant. You don't need huge enmity modifiers. You just need to hold hate. In regular, duty finder play, tank stance is going to more often than not be enough to hold hate majority of the time no matter what skill you use. Using enmity combo is usually overkill, unless you'll be switching to DPS stance...at which point this part of the discussion doesn't even apply to it.

[Limecat]

It would require any fight that uses tank swaps to be reworked, so it's probably more trouble than it'd be worth.