Why Eureka is a worse form of the Diadem IMO

[Deceptus]

People asked for a less RNG and more progression based Relic and they got it.

[JunseiKei]

People asked for a less RNG and more progression based Relic and they got it.

Aren't the drops still RNG? I can only recall people complaining about farming old dungeons to progress relic and heavy tome costs. The only RNG complaints I heard were the first steps (atma and crystals) while being just boring FATE grinding, The crystals were also skip-able if you had the zeta to turn in.

[Reynhart]

One problem with this statement, is whether I AFK and hit Scatter over and over again, or top DPS, I still get the same reward.

In Eureka, if you AFK for most of the time or if you actively participate in targeting appropriate monsters, you get a very different reward. So, it should encourage people to do a little more effort.

Don't put words in my mouth, especially when you completely miss my point.

Problem is, you exactly said "I got reward, so I'm doing good" in a game that chose to not punish players but simply offers better reward if you do better. Because if the game punished you, then people would whine endlessly that "it's too haaard".

I gave you example of games that, in my opinion, did things right.

Examples that have absolutely no chance of being copied in this game. Seriously, anything remotely challenging is nerfed to the ground, do you really expect XIV taking inspiration from MH or Dark Soul ? Especially for the relic stuff, which we fully known would be tied to Eureka and fully known that it wouldn't involve challenging content.

[Asiragan]

Problem is, you exactly said "I got reward, so I'm doing good" in a game that chose to not punish players but simply offers better reward if you do better. Because if the game punished you, then people would whine endlessly that "it's too haaard".

This is what I said :

It's normal to think that if the game rewards you, then you are doing the right thing, right?

It's always easy to say that people are at fault but, and I'll say it again, it's mostly because they are lured by bad game design to begin with.

So yes, you are right. The game choose to not punish you for being bad, and you see this as a problem. Which is...exactly my point, no?

What I meant by that, and I will try to complete my initial post that I quoted, is that a good game design will reward the players that will play it correctly. If you do the mechanics well, or do a good rotation, you are rewarded with dps, for instance. (Of course you are not rewarded by loots, but as you said it would just end with a backlash from the players...).


But if you screw up a mechanics, you will end up dying and will do poor dps. Same way, if your crafting rotation is a mess you will either NQ your craft or make it fail completely thus loosing your materials.
A game need to punish players when they are playing wrong, in order to get a better feeling of achievement when they are doing it right.

But, and this is where I was going, Eureka does not punish you for being AFK waiting for xp and crystals to fall on your hands. And this is a serious game design flaw.

Examples that have absolutely no chance of being copied in this game. Seriously, anything remotely challenging is nerfed to the ground, do you really expect XIV taking inspiration from MH or Dark Soul ? Especially for the relic stuff, which we fully known would be tied to Eureka and fully known that it wouldn't involve challenging content.

No, those examples where just what they were : Examples to prove my point. That content should be made with mechanics that will follow the flow of the game's battle system;

I am absolutely not saying that FFXIV should implement MH or DS-like content. That would be stupid. FFXIV battle system is not geared for this type of things.
Tough a Dark Souls MMO would be...really interesting...

But I'm saying that Eureka could, and should, have a more interesting means to farm, have a better loot table outside of 2 poor items. I'm okay with the relics being inside Eureka. Or that Eureka itself is not hard.
Where I'm not fine, is that Eureka is designed to either reward you being AFK, instead of being punitive, or that the battles are just mindless button smash instead of having interesting quirks to make them, and the grind, interesting.

In my mind, a good game design should be "easy to learn, hard to master" type of things. Something that is easy to get into, but that show more depth the more you play it.

[Reynhart]

So yes, you are right. The game choose to not punish you for being bad, and you see this as a problem. Which is...exactly my point, no?

This is a problem, but it's not a problem of Eureka but a problem of the whole game. In fact, like Kaldea nterestingly said, wether you do top DPS or completely suck at it, you'll get the same reward in raids, while in Eureka, doing the train underleved will give way less reward that targeting appropriate monsters. So Eureka is the less guilty content of FFXIV regarding this.

A game need to punish players when they are playing wrong, in order to get a better feeling of achievement when they are doing it right.

That's a very debatable philosophy and the main difference between XI and XIV "Do you punish those that do wrong or do you reward more those that do right ?" And again, Eureka, for at least having an Xp loss and a level down, is the content that lean the most toward the former (In the context of FFXIV).
I personally wouldn't be opposed to losing some Xp even if you're raised, that would make people pay more attention...Yet again, they chose to add objectives in Eureka to give more incentive to killing monsters, following again the philosophy of "better rewards by doing better" instead of "no reward for doing bad".

But I'm saying that Eureka could, and should, have a more interesting means to farm, have a better loot table outside of 2 poor items. I'm okay with the relics being inside Eureka. Or that Eureka itself is not hard.

Frankly after the fiasco of both Diadems, I undertstand how they didn't want to go deeper into Eureka before seeing if people would follow it. And I like Anemos even only for being something different than the dungeons or raids, and for making people actually talk to each other, organize (If only a little) as a group, and generally be helpful. I hope that Pagos will improve this whole concept.

[Asiragan]

This is a problem, but it's not a problem of Eureka but a problem of the whole game. In fact, like Kaldea nterestingly said, wether you do top DPS or completely suck at it, you'll get the same reward in raids, while in Eureka, doing the train underleved will give way less reward that targeting appropriate monsters. So Eureka is the less guilty content of FFXIV regarding this.

That's still a really bad design. The game shouldn't give rewards for not playing it at all.

As for the R24, I agree, but what do you want to do about it? Bad players will still be bad if they don't even want to read their skills. And making an "Enrage" mechanics in it will just punish the average/good players that have to support them. Or you just gate every content behind the SSS dummy.

That's a very debatable philosophy and the main difference between XI and XIV "Do you punish those that do wrong or do you reward more those that do right ?" And again, Eureka, for at least having an Xp loss and a level down, is the content that lean the most toward the former (In the context of FFXIV).
I personally wouldn't be opposed to losing some Xp even if you're raised, that would make people pay more attention...Yet again, they chose to add objectives in Eureka to give more incentive to killing monsters, following again the philosophy of "better rewards by doing better" instead of "no reward for doing bad".

Sure, but let's be honest, here. The xp loss almost never happens in Eureka, since you always get raised. Plus, just saying that you will lose xp even if you are raised by an other player will make people rage about the technical problem of Eureka. You know, when the boss disappear or when there is so much enemy/players on screen that you don't even see what's killing you?

And again, the design is really not clear or rewarding enough to make players wonder if they are doing it the good way or not.

Frankly after the fiasco of both Diadems, I undertstand how they didn't want to go deeper into Eureka before seeing if people would follow it. And I like Anemos even only for being something different than the dungeons or raids, and for making people actually talk to each other, organize (If only a little) as a group, and generally be helpful. I hope that Pagos will improve this whole concept.

Like I said, to me Eureka is an insult to the player base. I can't understand the excuse that "Diadem failed, let's do the bare minimum for Eureka". Eureka's design is lazy, boring and unfitting for a 2018 MMO. It could have been great but right now it's mediocre at the very best.
Sure, it's different from dungeons or raids, but is that really all they could do with that? Just an other boring and mindless FATE train? And let's say that "people are playing it right", would it be less boring to farm those two items in an instanced environment?

I'll wait and see for Pagos, but seeing how S.E. already gave the validation for Anemos with how flawed it was, I won't get my hopes up for this.

[LaylaTsarra]

I disagree, I like the overall simplicity of Eureka. Sure, more stuff to do in there will help and SE is already adding more.

The place is packed on a regular basis. People are going and for the most part judging by convo in game having fun. I personally enjoy the open world laid back environment of Eureka. I suspect we'll get more to do with Pagos, we'll just have to wait and see.

[Reynhart]

That's still a really bad design. The game shouldn't give rewards for not playing it at all.

It's really complicated in a group content. You can't be sure that everybody is actively participating, unless you make the content challenging enough so that everybody has to.

Or you just gate every content behind the SSS dummy.

For, me SSS should be a requirement to have access to a content. This wouldn't solve all problem, but it would remove some of them.

Plus, just saying that you will lose xp even if you are raised by an other player will make people rage about the technical problem of Eureka.

It wouldn't really be a problem if they include an Xp buffer, like you had in XI, so that you don't lose your level 20 at the first death.

[KokonoeAiyoko]

I love Eureka myself. Instant queues as DPS and it beats the whole spamming dungeons while you have to rush everything like a crazy person over and over. Shit gets old, I like relaxing content like this.

[Maero]

Eureka while could be boring is not at all as bad as Diadem. If they improve on certain aspects it could be better however.