Why Eureka is a worse form of the Diadem IMO

[Usho]

Both forms of content are terrible. Both are lazy. Both didn't have a lot of time nor effort put into them. Eureka is still Diadem 3.0 to me (if I wanted to FATE grind, I'd just make FATE party in Northern Thanalan like the good old days). They shame the original "Forbidden Land, Eureka" from FF3, using it's name for bland content they had a year to work on. This trend of "Eurediadem" will likely continue into the next expansion and the one after that and...the one after...that. Yet another piece of typical repetitive ffxiv content formula. SB was a letdown so far, but I didn't get my hopes up too high since I knew SB would be the same crap with a new coat of paint. I hope next expansion is better than what SE...no Yoshi-P made for SB so far, but like SB, I won't get my hopes up since I'm sure it will be crushed.



/2 cents

[Rokke]

I think they're both equally bad since they boil down to fate grinding & afking. Had the relics + dyeable AF sets not been held hostage by Eureka it would be as dead as Diadem.

[Asiragan]

There's actually no difference between NM, FATES and Hunts. It's basically group to kill a big monster. I really can't understand this FATE hate...do people really expect not having to kill monsters in an FF game ?

A video game can't be resumed to "It's basically a group that kill a big monster". If the game is just that, then it's failing somewhere.

Let's take an example. Right now, I'm playing Monster Hunter : World, a fairly popular game. As the title imply you set out in the wilderness to hunt...giant monster. If Capcom would have left it at that, the game would be boring. But you have multiple things to take into account :
- The battle system : Each hit you want to land must be tough over, if you don't want to be punished by the monster. But that's also to have the pleasure to see a monster knocked down after you managed to land a massive hit on it.
- The reward system : You need part of the monsters to make better weapon or armor. You can get specials parts by breaking/cutting parts of a monster, like the tail for instance. It also help in the fight by weakening the boss.

And here I'm only scratching the tip of what a hunt entail.



An other exemple : Dark Souls, a well acclaimed game from a few years prior.

Sure, in this game you will fight big bosses in a arena. But the trap-filled road you have to take, to bypass the numerous ennemies you encounter or the PVP invaders to even make it to the arena is what make the game fun. Here, the "big monster" is almost the reward for clearing the road to it.


My point is that a game is not just about "killing a big monster". It's how you can put this battle in the battle system you designed, in the context you wanted it to be. And how the players feel rewarded after that. In my sens, this is a form of art in and of itself. The diadem and Eureka both fail completely at that because they just throw monster at you that players can just zerg down until the FATE is over. If there was some depth or well tough mechanics behind it, the players wouldn't hate the FATE train so much.

No, people play poorly. They'd rather stay AFK and gain pitiful experience points and no crystal from high level NM instead of actually targeting monsters of the appropriate level and gain much higher Xp/Protean crystal per hour.

This is not the first time I read this argument, and I really don't like it. Why are people playing poorly? The game still reward them even if they are afk.

It's normal to think that if the game rewards you, then you are doing the right thing, right?

It's always easy to say that people are at fault but, and I'll say it again, it's mostly because they are lured by bad game design to begin with.


Will a MH monster will give you its horn if you don't cut them? No.
Will Eureka give you xp and crystals while you were afk watching Netflix the entire duration of the FATE? Yes, and that's absolutely ridiculous.

[JunseiKei]

Loved Diadem better. Specifically, the Matron's Diadem (gathering). Shards were super easy to get through Diadem as well as collecting more of the hourly locked mats from ARR and some higher-in-demand HW ones.

I'm guessing Diadem gets the finger more because it's just F.A.T.E.s into more F.A.T.E.s. Eureka is normal monster grinding while waiting for THE F.A.T.E. to pop. Also, Diadem always required 2 people (free company airship) or 8 people if queuing. Eureka has no such restriction.

[Reynhart]

A video game can't be resumed to "It's basically a group that kill a big monster".

A video game as a whole can't. But Hunts can, yet people praise it above FATES while it's basically the same.

It's normal to think that if the game rewards you, then you are doing the right thing, right?

If you AFK during a 24-man raid and the alliance still beat it without kicking you, would you say you're doing the raid right ?
If you're doing a poor job and are rewarded poorly, it doesn't mean you couldn't do it great and be rewarded greatly.
But I guess some people are ok with mediocrity.

It's always easy to say that people are at fault but, and I'll say it again, it's mostly because they are lured by bad game design to begin with.

It's because people are sheep. Even if you tell and show them that there's a better way, they won't believe you because they heard someone saying someone else that the train is the only way to play Eureka.

[SinisterJoints]

Both forms of content are terrible. Both are lazy. Both didn't have a lot of time nor effort put into them. Eureka is still Diadem 3.0 to me (if I wanted to FATE grind, I'd just make FATE party in Northern Thanalan like the good old days). They shame the original "Forbidden Land, Eureka" from FF3, using it's name for bland content they had a year to work on. This trend of "Eurediadem" will likely continue into the next expansion and the one after that and...the one after...that. Yet another piece of typical repetitive ffxiv content formula. SB was a letdown so far, but I didn't get my hopes up too high since I knew SB would be the same crap with a new coat of paint. I hope next expansion is better than what SE...no Yoshi-P made for SB so far, but like SB, I won't get my hopes up since I'm sure it will be crushed.



/2 cents

then why are you here?? /2 cents

[Okamimaru]

Look a group learning to play xylophone on the ribs of this dead horse

[KaldeaSahaline]

There's actually no difference between NM, FATES and Hunts. It's basically group to kill a big monster. I really can't understand this FATE hate...do people really expect not having to kill monsters in an FF game ?

Speaking personally - I hate FATEs because they're boring. They're not deep. They're not engaging, nor are they fun. So any content designed around being mindless, trivial, or boring, I avoid. Hunts and NM fall into this category as well. (again for me personally).

If you AFK during a 24-man raid and the alliance still beat it without kicking you, would you say you're doing the raid right ?
If you're doing a poor job and are rewarded poorly, it doesn't mean you couldn't do it great and be rewarded greatly.
But I guess some people are ok with mediocrity.

One problem with this statement, is whether I AFK and hit Scatter over and over again, or top DPS, I still get the same reward.

There are 24 man raids I join where I am top DPS as a tank. To offset this one time for science I went into a 24 man on my RDM. I simply cast Scatter over and over. I did AWFUL DPS, but no one called me out. No one kicked me, and I got plenty of loot. I genuinely felt bad about it.

The same reward for approximately 8% of the effort. Sounds like good design to me. /s.

I think they're both equally bad since they boil down to fate grinding & afking. Had the relics + dyeable AF sets not been held hostage by Eureka it would be as dead as Diadem.

Bingo. I would bet my annual salary on it that's how confident I am in that statement.

[Usho]

then why are you here?? /2 cents

Triggered much? o.0


Because there are other things in the game that I like to do. But honestly Sinister, it's really none of your business.



/2 cents

[Asiragan]

A video game as a whole can't. But Hunts can, yet people praise it above FATES while it's basically the same.

I don't like hunt in FFXIV either. But they does give better rewards than FATEs. On the open world, FATEs are just for leveling while waiting for you dungeon to proc. Aside for Ixion and Outfoxed at the start of the expansion (they where pretty popular at that time if I remember well), but outside of those, FATEs are just useless once you reach lvl 70.

Plus, it doesn't prevent the dev' to put depth to the hunt and/or the FATEs system. And both of them feels more dull than deep. Hence my contempt towards Eureka.

If you AFK during a 24-man raid and the alliance still beat it without kicking you, would you say you're doing the raid right ?
If you're doing a poor job and are rewarded poorly, it doesn't mean you couldn't do it great and be rewarded greatly.

Don't put words in my mouth, especially when you completely miss my point.

Honestly, I never saw someone being AFK for the whole raid without being kicked. Especially if that person wake up just to roll the dices on the loot. If people can't, or don't want to, kick someone like that, then they just agree to this attitude. The other players are expected to regulate the people with bad attitude during dungeons/raid. (And make a GM call when it's getting extreme).
And yes, if someone play poorly, he get the same chance to roll the loot as the others. I'm not saying that it's fine, but you just can't control something like that without tools like a parser in the game.

But my point was that you shouldn't get reward for not playing the game. It's dumb. Period.

It's because people are sheep. Even if you tell and show them that there's a better way, they won't believe you because they heard someone saying someone else that the train is the only way to play Eureka.

Then again you are making a really poor job of an argumentation. People are sheep? That's supposed to prove your point that Eureka is great?

No, I'm telling you, people are most than willing to play and learn rules of a game with good game design. But the game design of Eureka is pure garbage, so people will just go and do what will give them the better ratio of effort/ reward : AFKing during FATEs.
Sure, that's probably not the most efficient way around. But that's the one that will allows you to make your relic while watching a TV show.

But I guess some people are ok with mediocrity.

Well, I guess some people like Eureka.

It's their tastes and I can respect that, even if I do not understand it.


But to me, mediocrity is not acceptable. Whether it's from me, and even more so from a firm that failed twice before Eureka and didn't seems to learn anything at all from this failure.

And I think that people were right to expect great things from Eureka, hoping that S.E. did learn from the past mistakes.




Also, you should read my posts again. You are only picking bits that you think will give you an edge on the subject at hand, and then give really poor example or argumentation to prove whatever your point is.

I gave you example of games that, in my opinion, did things right. You are not only completely avoiding those example, you are also completely twisting my post to conform your argumentation at proving me wrong. It's dishonest.