A(nother) Secret of the Lily Rework Thread

[KisaiTenshi]

I guess that's about all I got to say on the matter. I personally feel this is an opportune time to rework Lilies given how healer balance has shifted with 4.3.

If S-E can package a potency increase for our DPS spells, that would be highly appreciated ^_______^

This proposal is just an over-designed "make it work off DPS" suggestion. As I've said in maybe a half dozen threads accross GD and here, the gauges are to point players the correct direction of doing their role/job. DPS is not a core part of the healer's job, hence none of their gauges deal with DPS. It's not a limit break button where resources are consumed. You may not like that it promotes, what in your point of view is inefficient play, but it is what the dev's view is the correct role of the healer. Therefor asking for anything related to DPS to be involved with the lilies is promoting the idea that the WHM is a green DPS, and that is simply dredging up the "lazy healer" nonsense again.

Now putting "correct way of healing" aside. This is what I would change in your idea:

1. Cast any healing GCD
2. A resource bar is charged (similar to Beast Meter / Heat)
3. When 100 resources is generated, the WHM grows a Lily and the bar resets (WHM can store up to 3 total)


Secrets of the Lily
Adds 10 resources to your Lily Gauge upon the successful execution of a healing GCD spell that recovers HP. When 100 resources is accumulated, a Lily is added (maximum 3 can be stored)
Lilies will lower the recast time for Asylum, Assize, Divine Benison, or Tetragrammaton by a percentage corresponding to the number of Lilies stacked at time of action execution (at which time the Lilies are removed).

1 Lily: 4%
2 Lilies: 10%
3 Lilies: 20%

It's important to keep the function of Lily I independent from Lily II.

Secrets of the Lily II
Any GCD heal that recovers at least 10% HP, removes 5 seconds from all currently ticking oGCD recast timers (including role actions like Largesse, Swiftcast and Lucid Dreaming) until there is 10 seconds remaining. Per player healed. So an efficiently executed Medica/Medica II/Cure III will shave 20 secs off a light party and 40 secs off a full party. Can not recast Asylum while Asylum is still up. (Admittedly this could probably break Swiftcast and POM if there is no floor recast to using either.)

Lily I & II will have no direct positive or negative effect on DPS skills. If you want to instead use Swiftcast and PoM on DPS skills, go right ahead, that's your loophole to exploit.

You need to leave all DPS skills out of the lilies themselves, or you will see the all DPS skills potency cut to balance it (even the your proposal in the first post would certainly result in cutting the DPS potency of Assize, and so would this one.)

Personally I'm expecting SE to nerf the potency of all DPS skills on all jobs in 5.0 relative to the new skills. So where Stone I (140)/ II(200) / III (210) / IV (250) gained 78%. That is far more significant amount of skill creep when the BLM's only gained 55%, and they have to combo to get that largest boom the fastest.

What I would like to see are "combo" skills that work with the co-healer. So instead of some absurd stacked HoT regen mechanics, they create a "shared double potency" version, so now instead of seeing two HoT stacks (and not knowing which one is yours), either healer that casts Medica II while there is still time left on the super-medica II HoT, renews the HoT for half the time, so that overlapping casts don't clip. eg Both healers cast Medica II (Or Diurnal Aspected Helios), result "Super Medica II", 30 secs. Each time Medica II is casted by either healer adds 15 seconds to it instead of a 30 second separate HoT's. WHM+AST(Noct) or WHM+SCH = "Medica Shield" where the Medica II cast recovers HP, and the Shield/Galvanize effect adds a shield, and once the players HP is full, the shield power doubles, and can be renewed by either the WHM or the SCH/AST. And for SCH+SCH or SCH+AST(Noct) you get "Super Galvanize" which doubles the strength, but is extended instead of overwritten by subsequent Aspected Helios/Succor casts. This solves the stacking/overwriting problem by allowing one healer to renew the the effect for 15s even if the other healer has has been taken out of commission. Initiating the "Super" version requires both healers to cast the HoT skill within one server tick of the other, otherwise behaves as normal.

A similar proposal could exist for DPS's that give party buffs, where a combination buff applies to the party as long as one of the DPS keeps renewing it.

[MoroMurasaki]

snip.

I committed to people off the forums that I would ignore your post but I just couldn't stick to it. This is awful. This would make WHM so horrendously overpowered even I would have to say something about it and I'm usually the one crying for WHM buffs.

Do you underatand what that massive CD reduction would do to the effective healing potency of WHM? It would take us from being the best by a small margin to being able to recover more HPS than a SCH and an AST combined over the course of a fight. It would be completely gamebreaking, like basically making your party immortal if your WHM didn't die.

Your complete and utter lack of understanding of how this game works and specifically how WHM works never ceases to astound me but this has to be the cherry on top of the of the sundae on top of the cake on top of the pizza on top of the brand new car - it is ridiculous.

Please for the love of WHM stop suggesting things until you understand how literally any of this works.

Your aversion to dps bothers me but not nearly as much as the rest of your proposal.

A bit of math so you understand how this works.

10% HP right now is around 4k for non-tanks. My Medica heals for about 8k. This means every Medica after a raidwide aoe will take 40 seconds off of all my timers. This is 1/3 of Thin Air and Lucid (WHM now has effectively limitless MP), about half of Largresse and Asylum which will mean a crazy amount of Largresse uptime (not that its needed, this WHM doesn't have to care about MP or GCD efficency), 2/3 of the time of Assize, Tetra and PI and SC and means DB is essentially always off of CD. PoM is the least of our worries at that point.

Also, the hate this WHM would generate (and I don't just mean irl from the AST and SCH communities, I mean threat from enemies) would be monumental. You are basically rewarding overhealing at this point (why not cast a Medica when everyone is only missing 5k health, the CD reduction is worth it!) and you will pull off of tanks this way without a doubt.

So no, your idea is literally the opposite of what WHM needs because WHM doesn't need to be able to solo heal Ultimate which is essentially what you're proposing.

Think before you type.

[Sebazy]

This proposal is just an over-designed "make it work off DPS" suggestion. As I've said in maybe a half dozen threads accross GD and here, the gauges are to point players the correct direction of doing their role/job. DPS is not a core part of the healer's job, hence none of their gauges deal with DPS.

Thematically you're correct, but the gameplay at hand simply doesn't pan out that way. Ghislain's solution has one source of lilies from actual DPS (Dots no less), the other is from any ability, it's certainly making it work off DPS, but it's not focused around that at all. Rather it works nicely off your overall work rate, something with should be encouraged anyhow.

At the end of the day, look at a WHM's raw cast numbers on a random EX primal log, you have to go almost to the bottom of the barrel before you find a WHM that's casting more healing than DPS abilities.

I'm not sure why you think that SE are so massively against healers getting any kind of a DPS bump, if this was the case, AST's malefic change would have been addressed by now. I also find it amusing that whilst you're practically terrified of suggesting any kind of DPS increase, yet are willing to put forward a cooldown reduction that's flat out broken. I don't think we're going to see a Lily change until 5.0 frankly, but I will be surprised if WHM doesn't get a potency bump for 4.4 TBH.

[Ilenya]

I'm not sure why you think that SE are so massively against healers getting any kind of a DPS bump, if this was the case, AST's malefic change would have been addressed by now. I also find it amusing that whilst you're practically terrified of suggesting any kind of DPS increase, yet are willing to put forward a cooldown reduction that's flat out broken. I don't think we're going to see a Lily change until 5.0 frankly, but I will be surprised if WHM doesn't get a potency bump for 4.4 TBH.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't this be a DPS buff anyways just because of Assize? Single cast could shave off 40 seconds on one of your most potent DPS/Healing abilities, and any sort of raidwide damage would let you repeat it nearly infinitely, yes?

[MoroMurasaki]

Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't this be a DPS buff anyways just because of Assize? Single cast could shave off 40 seconds on one of your most potent DPS/Healing abilities, and any sort of raidwide damage would let you repeat it nearly infinitely, yes?

Thats not the only potential dps increase (if you aren't dead from yanking off the tank of course) because the amount of healing that could be accomplished via these oGCDs that would always be up would ultimately mean less of a need to cast GCD heals. In trying to buff healing this also buffs dps in terms of potential GCD efficency.

Not that the 'developer' of that proposal intended it to be played that way of course. But, just like in the game, dev intention is meaningless if it conflicts with efficency.

Edit: Also I don't want to detract from the OP's original idea. It really is wonderful and doesn't deserve to be derailed by this other nonsense.

[Mahrze]

This proposal is just an over-designed "make it work off DPS" suggestion. As I've said in maybe a half dozen threads accross GD and here, the gauges are to point players the correct direction of doing their role/job.

I know its completely unrelated to the topic but MNK is a job who's gauge(s) doesn't direct them in anything other than telling them their GL "levels" and "stack" and both come from just pressing buttons which you can only do "orderly" because of forms.

And like everyone else has said, the fact that you can DPS as a healer without stance dancing as of SB clearly means DPS is part of the job now. #respectingcontent

Besides, lilies are not the only "useless" resource; PI is also pretty weak for a "signature patch" skill imo.

[Ghishlain]

This part is great.

This would be better. Aside from CDR still not being interesting, not wiping out all the lilies every time you blink would help make it feel like a resource that you're supposed to manage and care about instead of "if it does something, okay, if not, whatever", which is what it is right now.

Glad you approve

What they could have done, is make it a kind of aoe mini shield. You throw it on someone and the nearby people get a "splash" of it on them. Less powerful than the original target but still protected. We have water skill, it can be a water shield!

I wouldn't mind this. Heck, I wouldn't mind just more... Water things in general. The CNJ/WHM kit is very lacking in the Water department >>; I think the only spells / abilities I know that are considered Water affinity is Esuna and Fluid Aura (and heck, Esuna is now a cross role..).

Benison feels water like but I dunno if it counts as a subset of the "Holy" power that WHM gives.

[Ceasaria]

Benison feels water like but I dunno if it counts as a subset of the "Holy" power that WHM gives.

For Fluid Aura, Divine Benison and Thin Air, you can hear Water sound effect.
The others as Assize, Asylum, for me it's Light sound effect.

[Keridwyn]

As a casual healer I can't find more than extremely situational use for Fluid Aura and Repose outside of sometimes when I'm soloing in Eureka and get too close to an extra mob. They need to be changed up or shuffled around.

Fluid Aura: Would it be too OP if Fluid Aura was replaced by Divine Benison's effect? Would it break the game if Fluid Aura put a 15% HP shield on our selves/target every 30s? It could upgrade and be replaced by Divine Benison which could have either an extended duration or maybe absorb a higher percentage of HP.

Or, if that would be too powerful, what about turning it into a small splash cure? Just a 100 potency instant heal that would hit the primary and maybe targets in close proximity to it? It could even tie into the Lily system later on like Asylum, Assize, Tetra, and the other OGCD heals.

Repose: Instead of being a sleep spell could it possibly become an aggro dump? We could really use another one of those that's not tied to our mana.

Just spitballing here I'm not sure how these might impact endgame.

[MoroMurasaki]

Or, if that would be too powerful, what about turning it into a small splash cure? Just a 100 potency instant heal that would hit the primary and maybe targets in close proximity to it? It could even tie into the Lily system later on like Asylum, Assize, Tetra, and the other OGCD heals.

Repose: Instead of being a sleep spell could it possibly become an aggro dump? We could really use another one of those that's not tied to our mana.

Just spitballing here I'm not sure how these might impact endgame.

In my opinion WHM doesn't need any more potential healing, if anything our already amazing effective HPS could be why we see such a lack of literally anything else on the dps/utility side. Making Fluid Aura a heal is redundant but making it an early game DB could be interesting to start teaching new healers to weave an oGCD.

As for Repose - yes please! Or a threat queller like Diversion. Either would be really handy. We are the only healer without some sort of innate enmity management. I would prefer it at least go oGCD though then, seeing as AST and SCH don't need to do anything for their threat reductions.

Edit: I realize now this doesn't really tie in much to the OP but I still thought they were cool rehashes of otherwise unappreciated skills.