Disembowel: Please Fix this Mess

[Dualgunner]

Nothing about what I said is inconsistent.

I'm gonna edit more, but stop. Stop right now. Read what I said. Bard and Machinist are inconsistent with the tools they bring.

Even if your name is "Bard and Machinist", I didn't say Bard and Machinist are inconsistent with what they say. So please take a few steps back.

I wouldn't say the RDPS app is any more accurate than fflogs is. If anything, it's less accurate because of all the limitations the fflogs API has. They measure different things, but neither measure class-to-class efficiency. One measures personal damage while the other the effectiveness of raid buffs. If we wanted to make proper class comparisons, we'd actually have to make party composition comparisons and look at how the total party dps changes between setups. This isn't really possible with the current tools we have and there's no full party simulators out (at least yet) that we could use to compare outputs without RNG, human and strategy factors.

Okay, that's a fair assessment.

As far as the gap between BRD and MCH goes, there is one no doubt, at least a perceived one. But haven't seen any convincing numbers on how big that gap is in reality. Let's not forget that BRD also loses a lot of dps in a non-crit focused party comp.

I can't think of any numbers that would be convincing to show, let alone if they exist. At least we can agree there's a gap, and however small it is, the playerbase perceives a wide gap based on total uploads. There are less than a quarter total uploads in the last two weeks, and while I hate only having the last two weeks, that's another limitation in FFLogs. In the top 50 numbers I looked at earlier, bard was a constant where Machinist, Summoner, and Monk were the revolving door.

Ignoring perfect buff windows (Because 99% of us aren't perfect), a Bard is something like 2.1% more RDPS on average (This spikes up according to buff windows, but as I said, small enough a case where it can be shuffled off to "Super math land".)

A Machinist is 1.25%.

If we take an average raid team doing 33k DPS, this amounts to 630 and 375. A difference of about 255. Using single target boss encounters as multiple boss enemy encounters favor the Bard due to double dotting (So using Chadernook and God Kefka), the Machinist is on average at 75th percentile about 200 ahead of the Bard.

This is a pretty fair assessment. It is arguable though, that similar to Samurai, people will prefer the Bard anyway because they'd rather see their numbers go up than the Machinist's. Not to mention, you're more likely to find a bard who's okay with the job than a machinist due to the latter's barrier to entry and the community's general dislike for the rotation.

The Machinist brings Dismantle which is superior to Troubadour due to its on demand nature and significantly shorter cooldown.
Regarding Mana Song, as the Machinist does not use MP for anything, the timing on Mana Song is more flexible for the Machinist, which has implicit value but hard to quantify.

Fair.

Nature's Minne is hard to quantify its value, but a pre-pull Adlo isn't that much stronger for it and even spamming it on CD likely doesn't see much value (As abilities don't benefit and Regens must be reapplied with Minne else it has no value)

If I may, does the 2% crit buff also work on healing? That aside, I have no arguments here.

Paen doesn't work on anything important as far as I know.

Eh, if you're doing Ghosts right you can Paean a healer before going in and it becomes stupid easy. But nobody does those right anymore.

In the end, I cede that Bard and Machinist are more equal with their tools brought than I initially thought. They will still, I believe, practically vanish if left untouched after piercing disappears, based on popularity alone.

[Kabooa]

I'm gonna edit more, but stop. Stop right now. Read what I said. Bard and Machinist are inconsistent with the tools they bring.

Even if your name is "Bard and Machinist", I didn't say Bard and Machinist are inconsistent with what they say. So please take a few steps back.

The first line was in response to earlier in the post, not what was quoted.

That's my mistake.

[Remedi]

I think that the 2% crit buff does work on healing I don't see why it shouldn't actually, unless it's a wording I always overlooked

[Kabooa]

I think that the 2% crit buff does work on healing I don't see why it shouldn't actually, unless it's a wording I always overlooked

It should, but crit healing is kind of overlooked. Beyond Adlo fishing, you shouldn't rely on criticals to heal someone, nor do you need it.

[Remedi]

Ye, was just commenting on the possibility of it not having an interaction with heals

[HyperiusUltima]

Ye, was just commenting on the possibility of it not having an interaction with heals

Only real application is TBs or when you know your SCH is going to Deploy.

[Nominous]

,what happens when disembowel is removed but mch gets buffed to the point where double ranged is still viable. This issue is very complex

It is a complex issue. However, I think people over-exaggerate the idea of, "Whatever's the strongest will just be meta, and we'll just be back where we are now."

The thing is, the most sought-after party buffs and Jobs bring significant bonuses to the party. People downplay their value, but the reason why such a rigid idea of a meta has taken hold is because those are gains that aren't insignificant. Trick Attack, Disembowel in particular. On the other hand... If all we had in-game right now were Brotherhood/Dragonsight/Devotion/Embolden, people wouldn't care nearly as much, because they don't do enough for the party to care. BLM, and SAM are the only ones people would still crap on, because of a lack of even an insignificant buff to bring.

So if you remove disembowel, the only Job that's remotely going to still be looked at as necessary, is BRD. Which has always been the case, because it's the support darling of the game, and brings a bit of everything you want for a raid. NIN still, because of Trick, which also needs looked at, frankly.

[Nemekh]

I think that the 2% crit buff does work on healing I don't see why it shouldn't actually, unless it's a wording I always overlooked

It does. Easiest and quickest method to verify is the HoT test.

[NoctusT]

IIRC 3 out of the top 10 groups run SMN which is nice, hope it gets some love. But yeah this double ranged stuff has been around for too long. I hope this thread gets more attention.

That said, RDM is already THE prog caster so I don't see why you'd want to buff the damage. It's rezzes are really strong.

[HyoMinPark]

That said, RDM is already THE prog caster so I don't see why you'd want to buff the damage. It's rezzes are really strong.

Your statement answered your question—RDM is useful for prog, but beyond that, it serves no use. If people aren’t dying, Verraise is a useless skill and a useless utility. Embolden is a ridiculously weak utility that doesn’t even benefit other casters, and RDM does less damage than an equally skilled BRD unless that BRD doesn’t have a DRG (and even then, BRD is really close to beating RDM). RDM’s utility is no where near BRD’s; the two are not remotely comparable, so why should RDM have lower utility AND personal damage?