According to FFLogs, AST pDPS >= WHM pDPS in 4.3

[Caduagm]

You're exaggerating the gap in oGCD usage here by just equating all these actions as if they all see the same useage.

I didn't count those, my friend. Do you wanna count them with me?
Lightspeed, Essential Dignity, Draw, Royal Road, Spread, Redraw, Synastry, Time Dilation, Collective Unconscious, Celestial Opposition, Earthly Star, Star and Detonation/Explosion (sometimes), Minor Arcana + Lord or Lady since you have to press the button again, Sleeve Draw (I'm not counting the cards this ability gives, even though it would result in more oGCDs to weave). There are 15 oGCDs. You use at least 2 of them each 30 seconds.

Comparing the sheer nunber of AST oGCDs with WHM oGCDs is stupid. WHM almost always wants to pop oGCDs as soon as they are up where as AST can go for long periods of time without using their royal road/spread cancellers and essnetially doesn't use Undraw once they have Minor Arcana.

Yes? But for that you still use Draw, Redraw and then Minor Arcana x2 each 30 seconds. That's 4 oGCDs. Again, I didn't count Undraw, Empty Road and Undraw Spread. WHM uses what? 3 per minute? Assize, Tetra and Plenary? I'm not counting Benison since sometimes you wanna save it.
On AST are at least 6 per minute.

Don't start victimizing AST

First of all, hello interpretation. I didn't victimize AST. I was comparing its oGCDs to WHM ones.

I agree with you that the Malefic III change was needed from a QoL standpoint but it should have come with a potency nerf to compensate for the no longer clipped GCDs. Lightspeed and Aspected Helios changes are fine imo but they need to take away either pDPS or rDPS.

It should not have a nerf. AST is the healer that didn't get any upgrade on its DPS filling spell this expansion. They should buff WHM since they're doing less than both SCH and AST.

Yes, I am. Because the oGCDs WHM has is used extremely often while ASTs most used oGCD is now Earthly Star and essential dignity. Cards were completely fixed.

"Extremely often"? 2 per minute? How is that extremely often? Logic says hi.
Cards were fixed but it is still in there. It is still an oGCD.

WHM is constantly clipping their OGCD heals and mobility is a huge issue for them.

They're not constantly clipping their oCGD heals, they clip what? 2 GCDs each minute?
But yeah I do agree with you about the lack of movement skill on WHM, but there's a easy fix by just increasing the initial damage of Aero II.

[Wilbow]

I can understand where you're coming from regarding the maximum DPS for an AST, but that would also imply that it would take several things not into account including card buffs that cause AST to clip their GCDs. It would seem odd given the cards themselves give an effect to the AST so by not including that in their calculations, it would actually imply S-E has missed an important component of the AST kit as a whole.

Which then leads me to question other things but given the design direction of how healer's have been since 3.0, I'm not too surprised either.

Well, Benefic I+II have a 2.0s cast time for a reason. It's only when you're doing AoE healing or DPS that you really see the clipping issues.

Now most vet healers know that AoE healing and DPS is much of what we do now, but this is the same balancing team that made lily generation tied to single target heals, so I don't think they got that same memo. I'm convinced that they thought that you should simply be weaving cards with Benefic, or something to that effect.

SE is really reluctant to accept that healers in this game actively DPS and will continue to do so unless game mechanics are pretty much overhauled in a future expansion. They seem to think only cutting edge groups and the ilk have healers DPS, but its way more widespread than that. That misconception has been at the root of many of WHM's balance issues since 3.0, honestly.

[MoroMurasaki]

It should not have a nerf. AST is the healer that didn't get any upgrade on its DPS filling spell this expansion. They should buff WHM since they're doing less than both SCH and AST.

I've got only a few more mins so for now my biggest problem with your post - no, please, not this. This will just keep the endless wheel of buffing everyone going. AST didn't get a flat pDPS increase because it didn't need one, this one was clearly unforseen by the devs when they addressed the clipping.

By having one Dot and on a much longer duration AST loses fewer nuke GCDs per fight than WHM to dot refreshing and now also clips less than WHM when using oGCDs. At some point the basic potency difference between Stone IV and Malefic III isn't enough anymore.

[Mutemutt]

By having one Dot and on a much longer duration AST loses fewer nuke GCDs per fight than WHM to dot refreshing and now also clips less than WHM when using oGCDs. At some point the basic potency difference between Stone IV and Malefic III isn't enough anymore.

I don't think that line of thinking really makes sense though. If being a DoT is a drawback --and it must be if the catch is it does more damage in the long run than the upfront damage alternatives -- then isn't having a shorter duration a boon? In this case, whm gets to use their stronger spell more often than ast gets to use theirs. To take it even further, if you shortened the duration of aero has much as you could, making it deal all it's damage upfront, you'd replace every stone IV cast with aero and come out ahead.

[_Winters_]

It should not have a nerf. AST is the healer that didn't get any upgrade on its DPS filling spell this expansion. They should buff WHM since they're doing less than both SCH and AST.

I agree with Caduagm, WHM needs a buff. Nerfing AST isnt the solution, SCH will remain ontop and we always get two other types of healers fighting for the beggars choice.

Since SCH wont get nerfed and never will be (coming from a player who have played healer since 1.0 and started heavily in 2.0) the only way we can reach the SCH is through buffs to stand on equal grounds.

[_Winters_]

AST's as it is now in 4.3 is a great all around healer, if WHM would get a considered buff in DMG and maybe another lily fix (a real fix) we could see not WHM and AST fighting for the same spot but acctually starting a new meta with AST/WHM being another choice rather then just SCH/X for every raid.

BTW ppl stating WHM is still the dungeon king, I beg to differ as WHM even here arent on Max parsers or dps anymore in the expert dungeons, every new ilvl increase boost the SCH up (%) even higher in dungeons.

https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/14#b...spec=WhiteMage WHM

https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/14#b...l&spec=Scholar SCH

[_Winters_]

And I know these charts arent showing bursts or overall dps, im just trying to say that WHM isnt so amazing in speed runs as ppl make it out they are (and is supposed to be where they excel in dps and therefore dont need raid dpsing apparently).

As we see here https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/14#bracket=4

WHM started overpowered because its role in FF history is one of the most powerful and rare classes there is, Holy was always one of the strongest spells used in FF games and is the reason why it started so strong. Obviously we cant have a class like that in an mmorpg for balance reasons, but WHM should atleast be the DPS king of healers considering they are using the greatest force of magic that is supposed to be comparable to Black Mages.

[_Winters_]

I dont need raid utility aslong as I know WHM makes up for it by being a WHM, I always enjoyed the WHM cause it has the ability to carry a party during heavy loads and oh shit moments and ontop of that standing on its own in Personal DPS/AOE in dungeons and boss fights.

That was WHM to me and is what it should be, shouldnt try to compete with SCH and AST in raid utility, I rather WHM had a high ceiling like BLM and high skill to reach it but when you are there you excel over the others.

Not a basic starter healer that isnt good in anything but overhealing the tank, sorry for the spamm

[Sebazy]

BTW ppl stating WHM is still the dungeon king, I beg to differ as WHM even here arent on Max parsers or dps anymore in the expert dungeons, every new ilvl increase boost the SCH up (%) even higher in dungeons.

https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/14#b...spec=WhiteMage WHM

https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/14#b...l&spec=Scholar SCH

I wouldn't put too much stock in those rankings since it seems very buggy or selective about what actually gets entered.

A quick flick through some logs I uploaded last year:

500 dps ahead of the top whm and 800 dps ahead of the top SCH on Ala Mhigo in those rankings

700 / 600 dps ahead on Kugane

500 / 1450! dps ahead on Temple

A few caveats to note:

These were all without cleric stance because I'm lazy so there's more room to be made there if I pulled my finger out.

These were also from last tier so I would have been around ilvl 330/340 by that point at best (I was incredibly unlucky with healer gear in Deltascape).

I've not got anything from the current dungeons to link due to not needing tomes in forever and being unable to figure out why I don't get ranked. If I can solve that then I'll certainly have a go.

*edit* Whoops, chopped out part of my post!

I'm actually A OK with SCH snapping on my heels for dungeon damage though, it's important to note that a SCH's AoE is still somewhat dot dependant and as such they are fairly reliant on a sub par group with a reliable Tank to really shine here. If you've got two top notch DPS that are both aoeing trash down hard, a SCH isn't going to keep competitive.

[Mutemutt]

AST's as it is now in 4.3 is a great all around healer, if WHM would get a considered buff in DMG and maybe another lily fix (a real fix) we could see not WHM and AST fighting for the same spot but acctually starting a new meta with AST/WHM being another choice rather then just SCH/X for every raid.
]

To be honest, I think it's more likely that if they buff whm damage it would actually just make sch/whm more prominent than it already is, if anything. I think both ast and whm are solid healers, but sch just stands way above them, and that's the problem. The failing of the AST/WHM pairing isn't that whm is weak -- whm sees plenty of play in raiding in the SCH/WHM pair-- it's that sch is way above noct ast.