Been running Ridorana Lighthouse the whole week and...

[Penthea]

I do get where you are coming form

You keep saying that but you don't.

you want role priority due to the fact that you took the time to queue up as that role and you should be granted some level of safety against other players snagging what could potential be an upgrade?

My personal reasoning for wanting role priority is so I can help my raid team. If my gear gets better then the team has increased chance of killing the boss. Sure something might be a minor upgrade for me, but if several individuals get minor upgrades then the team as a whole gets a big upgrade. This reasoning is actually standard across most raiding teams.

but would that slight upgrade provide such a huge boon to the groups effectiveness that it should granted priority over everyone else in the group?

You don't get where I'm coming from because you don't look at the bigger picture. You keep going on about how the upgrade won't affect the alliance raid's performance, but you don't even think about how that upgrade might affect other content.

[Awha]

You keep saying that but you don't.
My personal reasoning for wanting role priority is so I can help my raid team. If my gear gets better then the team has increased chance of killing the boss. Sure something might be a minor upgrade for me, but if several individuals get minor upgrades then the team as a whole gets a big upgrade. This reasoning is actually standard across most raiding teams.

You don't get where I'm coming from because you don't look at the bigger picture. You keep going on about how the upgrade won't affect the alliance raid's performance, but you don't even think about how that upgrade might affect other content.

Because those that are affected in the moment will be the alliance raid, who is the say that your current group that you were granted priority over will run more content with you in the future to reap the benefits of your upgrade thus making their future runs better overall. If we are talking a static situation or a PF that does multiple runs I can see where you are coming from, but from my experience most 24's are one offs.

You have no way of knowing what they're going to use it for. You do know, however, that they have the job unlocked at the right level for it. Which is more than enough reason to go "hm. That person probably needs it more than that other person who isn't currently on that job".
Right now, people still roll on the gear with those exact reasons, difference is they win them over people who need them for their main raison d'etre - being used by battle classes.

That is the point I was trying to make the group has no way of knowing what a player is going to do with the gear, and because they do not know why should they be granted priority simply due to their role / job? In a static setting it makes sense, but in a PuG setting granting priority to another due to their role or job seems odd to me. More or less blind faith that they will put the item to good use since they have happened to queue with that job in the moment.

[Penthea]

Because those that are effected in the moment will be the alliance raid, who is the say that your current group that you were granted priority over will run more content with you in the future to reap the benefits of your upgrade thus making their future runs better overall. If we are talking a static situation or a PF that does multiple runs I can see where you are coming from, but from my experience most 24's are one offs.

Before the last patch I used to run 24 mans several times a week to cap tomes, gear up jobs, get glams and to just generally have fun. I have only done one since the patch. Greed only made 24 mans one offs for me.

Also for all your talk of fairness your statement in that quote is incredibly selfish. You have basically said "if someone getting an upgrade doesn't make a noticeable difference to me then I don't want them to have priority on an upgrade even if it's for their role"

[Awha]

Before the last patch I used to run 24 mans several times a week to cap tomes, gear up jobs, get glams and to just generally have fun. I have only done one since the patch. Greed only made 24 mans one offs for me.

Also for all your talk of fairness your statement in that quote is incredibly selfish. You have basically said "if someone getting an upgrade doesn't make a noticeable difference to me then I don't want them to have priority on an upgrade even if it's for their role"

I do not think I ever said makes a noticeable difference to me, as in if it does not make my job easier and smoother their upgrade does not matter. More so meant that if the upgrade does not make the overall current run for everyone that much smoother as in in if that one upgrade will prevent or wipe or something or how that extra crit from your upgrade is a provides a massive dps increase if not why should a group of PuG's care that said upgrade will allow one player to be slightly stronger in content they may or may not participate in or with the person that got said upgrade? As I mentioned in a static I see where you are coming from, but from a PuG standpoint it is hard for me to grasp why ones future contribution in other runs should be taken into account.

It is hard for to explain, but when I speak about fairness I am talking about what is fair for that group you are currently running with, not going to deny that that upgrade in some other content might just be the edge your group needed to down the boss, but should group you are currently running with care about that "potential" benefit, should that "potential" benefit be enough of a reason to grant one player priority over another?

So you say better no faith at all and screw the righteous who'd go through with the faith given to them.

I'm not surprised, at this point I'm just shaking my head. And a static is the one where it won't make sense because you all agree on what you roll on before you go in there, so THERE playing the job you're most comfortable on instead of what you want the item for makes sense.

I meant in the sense that in a static handing out gear based around future benefit makes more sense, then within a PuG setting. I was trying to say that in a static it makes more sense since you know the player will make use of the upgrade. What reason does a PuG have to think another player will make enough use of the item to not warrant them a roll at all? To a degree you are right I am cynical to the point where I really do not trust many people and most the time expect the worst outcome when it comes to doing something with random strangers I do not know.

Well I eventually solved the mystery as to why you prefer greed only, despite your contradictory claims of wanting a fair system.

You're a pug who hasn't got it in them to care about the greater ramifications of having a greed only system. You can only see the immediate gain, which is how the gear affects your experience at the present moment. You think merely participating in content entitles you to have equal priority on all gear even though the game already awards participation with tomestones. You like greed only because participation is enough, you don't have to do the potentially daunting task of playing a new role in an alliance raid environment because you can roll on whatever you want.

For the record I do not feel participation is enough, it is just a by product of the how FFXIV tends to handle personal accountability but that goes into another can of worms that might derail the thread. I do not think a person that was dead or did next to nothing in the run should be even granted a roll, but due to how FFXIV is setup in a PuG setting that is hard since a lot of people will not even bother to join a group with master looter on since people are not very trustworthy. Like I have no issue with a person who did nothing getting credit for the clear, but I do not think they should get a chance to roll on the reward being as they were not an active part of the kill. Though it is just one of those things I deal with since not many options to counter it in a PuG setting.

Also tend to tank more often then not, and I have switched to tank to help out my group despite wanting to play DPS. Granted you are right I am deathly afraid of healing. Also you are current in the sense that I do not run 24's for gear, sure if I get a piece for my alt awesome I do it once and done. It is not much of a mystery, also I trying to be civil yet it seems you have taken a personal offense to my stance , which was my intent. Nor is it my intent to tell others to sit down at take it, be vocal about your dislike for the change, and hope something comes about from it. I am simply here trying to explain why I like the change / understanding why others seem to dislike it.

You do feel participation is enough. You have said several times in this thread that it's not fair to have need rolls because the boss is dead due to everyone's efforts, so no one should have priority on loot regardless of role. That is literally the definition of participation being enough to have equal priority on all loot.

As I mentioned before it is not a perfect system and SE could have gone about it better, but I do understand the intention behind the change and I appreciate the effort, as you mentioned they could have done about it differently and personally I have suggested a gear trade npc in another thread, that would be my perfect ideal system. I will take the good with the bad when it comes to the change, I would like adjustments to be made and I am sure with time adjustments will be made to the system. Way I see both systems screw over a group of players I am simply in favor of this system since in this system everyone has a equal shot at walking away with something.

My English is not that great, but I was under the impression that fair and acceptable do not necessarily mean the same thing. I do agree that it is unfair that someone who does next to nothing has the chance to roll on something, but can we really say that within the current system it is not acceptable for them to roll being as they were part of the group and were given a chance to roll by the system?

That is what I said, I said within the current system since we did not remove them from the group I kind of have to bite the bullet and grant that person a roll even though they did nothing, even though I did not like nor agree with it. I have mentioned their are cases where a person should not be granted a roll, but neither system really did anything to prevent such cases so making them part of the equation seems pointless since no system really counters that aspect just one makes it so everyone has to deal with it equally. Even then it is murky for me since I do feel fairness is based on perspective and opinion, it is a rabbit hole and one I wish I could covey better, I am trying though.

You do feel participation is enough. You have said several times in this thread that it's not fair to have need rolls because the boss is dead due to everyone's efforts, so no one should have priority on loot regardless of role. That is literally the definition of participation being enough to have equal priority on all loot.

Though once again you are right I should have said I do not feel participation 'alone' is enough.

At this point it hardly matters because his reasoning is neither. It's because he wants to have equal priority on absolutely everything merely because he participated, and he thinks this is okay because pugs won't care if the loot is useful elsewhere, and that he doesn't want anyone to have priority on gear because he can't see a difference when someone else gets it so obviously they don't need it...which somehow justifies greed only.

In short, this guy just wants to be able to roll on everything and doesn't care how the system affects anything he's not involved in.

Granted that is not what I am trying to say, but since I am having a hard time conveying it I will go with that. Why should your active group care about what impact your upgrade has in future content in so over their own impact in future content? See my issue? You are saying that your future potential because you so happen to be on that class at that moment is inherently greater then another. You are right though I do not understand this mindset, at the very I do get the the notion behind giving priority to the person actively playing the job / role in that moment. Though telling me that I should care about the future impact of a player that I may or may not meet again does throw me for a loop. Guess the way I see it is you are asking the group to give up their current chance to roll because if they ever happen to group up with you again you be that much stronger because of it, but for that trade of to matter to an individual they would have to group up with you again to reap the benefits. When they easily could have just had everyone have a equal shot at getting the item.

It’s not fair. That’s why there’s been so many complaint threads about it already, and I hope SE listens to what we have to say on this.

I will not disagree with this on an individual level yeah this system is more unfair in certain situations, in others is more fair. Also do think SE will revert the change.

Another mindset you don't understand. I care about players I will never meet again, have not met yet and may never meet because I care about the overall health of the game.

Alliance raids are not this thing entirely separate from the the rest of the game. They aren't some Gold Saucer mini game. It's a very real source of gear for players who do all sorts of content, from the casual to the hardcore.

Not only does difficulty getting loot in alliance raids affect how people can progress in other content, many players are worried that the trend of the new alliance raid loot system will spread to other content.

Again, you failing to look at the bigger picture.

My bigger picture view is I hope they just move to a token based system. Though overall I will never get why one person should have an easier time getting loot because they they happened to be the right role / job to get loot at that moment. I get it has an effect to how long it takes for people to gear up, how other progress in other content etc . . . but everyone is now in the same boat each player to a degree faces the same amount of RNG. Granted being as their is still a chance to roll zero people will strike out more and have the potential to go weeks without getting their desired drop. Though if that is true the opposite must be true. I just wish they would try a token based system.

Though I will say you seem to care more for your fellow gamer then I do. Since I do not feel I should have an obligation to care about the future progress or benefits of a player, nor do I think other players should care about mine. As I said for all I know that upgrade could be that last piece of the puzzle needed to allow said person to get a first time clear down the road. Since if I want my future progress to be valued shouldn't I value others and grant them equal chance at rolling on the item to maybe help them achieve that future progress?

[Penthea]

I do not think I ever said makes a noticeable difference to me, as in if it does not make my job easier and smoother their upgrade does not matter. More so meant that if the upgrade does not make the overall current run for everyone that much smoother why should a group of PuG's care that said upgrade will allow one player to be slightly stronger in content they may or may not participate in or with the person that got said upgrade?

Well I eventually solved the mystery as to why you prefer greed only, despite your contradictory claims of wanting a fair system.

You're a pug who hasn't got it in them to care about the greater ramifications of having a greed only system. You can only see the immediate gain, which is how the gear affects your experience at the present moment. You think merely participating in content entitles you to have equal priority on all gear even though the game already awards participation with tomestones. You like greed only because participation is enough, you don't have to do the potentially daunting task of playing a new role in an alliance raid environment because you can roll on whatever you want.

For the record I do not feel participation is enough

God knows why you quoted this post I wrote here in an earlier post of yours but whatever.

You do feel participation is enough. You have said several times in this thread that it's not fair to have need rolls because the boss is dead due to everyone's efforts, so no one should have priority on loot regardless of role. That is literally the definition of participation being enough to have equal priority on all loot.

[MrSmiley]

Well I eventually solved the mystery as to why you prefer greed only, despite your contradictory claims of wanting a fair system.

You're a pug who hasn't got it in them to care about the greater ramifications of having a greed only system. You can only see the immediate gain, which is how the gear affects your experience at the present moment. You think merely participating in content entitles you to have equal priority on all gear even though the game already awards participation with tomestones. You like greed only because participation is enough, you don't have to do the potentially daunting task of playing a new role in an alliance raid environment because you can roll on whatever you want.

Not sure, his response to me was he preferred equal over fair (?)

You are right fairness and equality are the not the same, and that is why I said to me personally seems unfair. Though outside of that I have said overall the change puts everyone on a equal playing field which overall in my view is better then granting priority to roles / jobs. I rather have everyone overall be on equal footing then have some players have what I feel is an unfair priority. SE tried something new, and I personally like the new direction, though as I said before I doubt i t will stay in place for long since most people seem to dislike the change. As I said before to me having a equal system trumps having a so called fair one.

[Penthea]

Not sure, his response to me was he preferred equal over fair (?)

At this point it hardly matters because his reasoning is neither. It's because he wants to have equal priority on absolutely everything merely because he participated, and he thinks this is okay because pugs won't care if the loot is useful elsewhere, and that he doesn't want anyone to have priority on gear because he can't see a difference when someone else gets it so obviously they don't need it...which somehow justifies greed only.

In short, this guy just wants to be able to roll on everything and doesn't care how the system affects anything he's not involved in.

[BillyKaplan]

More or less blind faith that they will put the item to good use since they have happened to queue with that job in the moment.

So you say better no faith at all and screw the righteous who'd go through with the faith given to them.

I'm not surprised, at this point I'm just shaking my head. And a static is the one where it won't make sense because you all agree on what you roll on before you go in there, so THERE playing the job you're most comfortable on instead of what you want the item for makes sense.

[Pyro2hell3]

short answer is its not all