Confused about people's obsession with open world raids/dungeons.

[WiiSam]

"social events" is a pretty weak argument for not having an NM at the end of an "outdoor dungeon" rofl



aaaaaand im done. ahaha

I'm just the messenger man, what is a pretty strong argument for having an NM at the end of an "outdoor" dungeon?

(btw I never said don't put a boss there, I said do not let him drop valuable loot. and I don't have an answer for "why else would people kill him then?" Quest or some shit, item pop, who knows, lots of options to explore there.

[Tigerme]

some people mentioned claiming system. (i.e when a person claim a mob, others are not able to help). I don't think this is a good idea. imagine you run into someone from your LS and he is dying, but you can't heal or kill the mob for him. Don't you think this is sad ? or when there is a open world boss blocking a way. isn't it better if people can group up to kill it together?
personally I think zerging is somehow necessary, although this will makes the game a lot easier...
I rather have a lot of people zerging a boss and dying, instead of having a tank tanking a boss and 5 lancer poking Ifrit's ass.
I know competition drives people crazy (I didn't get to claim any NM back in FF11 before i quit because there were way too many people camping them), but because there is a competition, it makes the loot more valuable and rare.
and talking about instance. I personally don't really like it, because when end game content is all about dungeon/instance, then people will just sit in town / outside of instance. It will make other place like ghost town, completely empty. (e.g. wow's lvling zone.)
I am not an English speaker, so please don't pick on my grammar and stuff.

[Splice]

I'm just the messenger man, what is a pretty strong argument for having an NM at the end of an "outdoor" dungeon?

(btw I never said don't put a boss there, I said do not let him drop valuable loot. and I don't have an answer for "why else would people kill him then?" Quest or some shit, item pop, who knows, lots of options to explore there.

You put it there and give it loot because half (made up statistic, but a fair amount besides) your player-base wants to do that sort of content.

[Splice]

some people mentioned claiming system. (i.e when a person claim a mob, others are not able to help). I don't think this is a good idea. imagine you run into someone from your LS and he is dying, but you can't heal or kill the mob for him. Don't you think this is sad ? or when there is a open world boss blocking a way. isn't it better if people can group up to kill it together?
personally I think zerging is somehow necessary, although this will makes the game a lot easier...
I rather have a lot of people zerging a boss and dying, instead of having a tank tanking a boss and 5 lancer poking Ifrit's ass.
I know competition drives people crazy (I didn't get to claim any NM back in FF11 before i quit because there were way too many people camping them), but because there is a competition, it makes the loot more valuable and rare.
and talking about instance. I personally don't really like it, because when end game content is all about dungeon/instance, then people will just sit in town / outside of instance. It will make other place like ghost town, completely empty. (e.g. wow's lvling zone.)
I am not an English speaker, so please don't pick on my grammar and stuff.

I had mentioned this only for the reason of zerging mobs down and limiting certain moves a mob could use if anyone could attack it (ie. Fafnir/Nidhogg Spike Flail from ffxi).

[Jynx]

I don't see why XI's HNM system is what people think of when they think of open-world content? That was one fairly specific thing.

Because it's easy to pick on the most flawed system in the open world. It's debating 101 find a chink in the armour and hammer away at it instead of looking at the broader picture of both sides.

[LavellaNyteshade]

Some people don't like being teleported into a closed off series of corridors for everything they do in-game. It's supposed to be a persistent world. That should mean that content can be enjoyed in said world. I'm not saying I want HNM camping, stealing, and botting to become the basis for endgame again, but I really hope they don't separate all the content from the game world. What's the point of the world if you don't play in it most of the time? There should be more to do than just level. you should be able to see other people from the world while you're doing said things. Go play a non-MMO if you don't want to see anyone but the people you're playing with.

My sentiments exactly

[WiiSam]

You put it there and give it loot because half (made up statistic, but a fair amount besides) your player-base wants to do that sort of content.

I understand, and I can deal with half as a real number. But here is a statement to that half: All your arguments about immersion and open world feel/exploration and all that stuff, how does that apply to the strongholds? The ONLY other people you run into are just another pt that you won't even talk to. You're just going to bust right through to get the NM first. It doesn't make sense...there is no world immersion, it will feel almost identical in an instance. The only difference is you just won't see another party that you won't have any interaction with anyway in the first place. So I don't get it. Open world roaming NM, I get it, lots of interaction. But the only interaction you have with another party at a stronghold NM or a mob holding a coffer key is one of 3 things:

1. Hey will you guys be done soon? We'll wait.
2. Hey screw you gai's we're stealing this.
3. Hey lets team up and zerg this bitch.

If you REALLY want content like the strongholds for reasons 1 and 2 then thats not enough to make it viable if you ask me. and you want it because of option 3 then you're a noob.

Can anybody tell me any other interaction they can possibly have at a stronghold NM with another party?

[Darkrose]

Ok let me get this straight. The people who want open world content such as NM/Raid is for the competition?

Ok, how about this for the Competition. The largest Guild and the strongest guild with the most Members will get all the Epic Loots first, they will get all the best gears first for all their members. Sorry to all other small Guild will have to wait for their turn for the share. But how much of a long wait? They will continue to camp the area and dominant the place. When you finally get your chance that Epic Weapon is useless since now they add new Open World Content and that same Guild is camping the best thing. There is no Competition, the largest guild will get all the loots first no matter what. Did people even play other MMORPG that have Open World Content and it become the biggest problem? Take example for Aion. They have both Instances and Open World Bosses. But they make the best weapon Open World boss only. Guess what happen? The largest Guild will camp that area none stop. The drop was really low so it was being camp by the same Guild constantly. They would park their alts their and the minutes boss show up, the whole Guild was there. Do we really need to see this in the game?

What is wrong with Instances? Everyone getting a fair chance here. It is still a Competition if you like it that way. Like I said before make the Instances hard and challenging. Whoever can form the most skills, mix and match different class together, put tactic and skill in going through the Instances get the drop at the end. You can make it rare drop for the competition who get the gears first. All this without the frustration of NM camping, big guild dominant the whole area, and you will never get your turn. You know I play FFXIV since Beta and I never done stronghold. Why? Because every time I'm there some Guild is already doing it. It is not fun running there like a maniac who get there first. It is not competition, I think it very stupid and just whoever zerge the fastest. By the time you can run it, the Stronghold become useless as new contents come out.

[WiiSam]

Ok let me get this straight. The people who want open world content such as NM/Raid is for the competition?

Ok, how about this for the Competition. The largest Guild and the strongest guild with the most Members will get all the Epic Loots first, they will get all the best gears first for all their members. Sorry to all other small Guild will have to wait for their turn for the share. But how much of a long wait? They will continue to camp the area and dominant the place. When you finally get your chance that Epic Weapon is useless since now they add new Open World Content and that same Guild is camping the best thing. There is no Competition, the largest guild will get all the loots first no matter what. Did people even play other MMORPG that have Open World Content and it become the biggest problem? Take example for Aion. They have both Instances and Open World Bosses. But they make the best weapon Open World boss only. Guess what happen? The largest Guild will camp that area none stop. The drop was really low so it was being camp by the same Guild constantly. They would park their alts their and the minutes boss show up, the whole Guild was there. Do we really need to see this in the game?

What is wrong Instances? Everyone getting a fair chance here. It is still a Competition if you like it that way. Like I said before make the Instances hard and challenging. Whoever can form the most skills, mix and match different class together, put tactic and skill in going through the Instances get the drop at the end. You can make it rare drop for the competition who get the gears first. All this without the frustration of NM camping, big guild dominant the area and it will be never your turn. You know I play FFXIV since Beta and I never done stronghold. Why? Because every time I'm there some Guild is already doing it. It is not fun running there like a maniac who get there first. It is not competition, I think it very stupid and just whoever zerge the fastest. By the time you can run it, the Stronghold become useless as new contents come out.

Amen. But just to clarify for the Open-World obsessed folk, Darkrose, it isn't only about the competition. It's something along the lines of immersion and, to them, is the definition of an "mmo". To play in an open world where you can meet and join up with people so outdoor areas don't become Ghost towns. Essentially, that is what they don't want to happen.

But what they don't get is that even if a dungeon is open world, they are worried people will /afk at an aeth or entrance to an instance right? They will do the samething for open world dungeons....just /afk outside of it or shout in uldah for a group to go do it. It's really the samething. They are all just very stubborn.

[Richard_BG]

Ok let me get this straight. The people who want open world content such as NM/Raid is for the competition?

Ok, how about this for the Competition. The largest Guild and the strongest guild with the most Members will get all the Epic Loots first, they will get all the best gears first for all their members. Sorry to all other small Guild will have to wait for their turn for the share. But how much of a long wait? They will continue to camp the area and dominant the place. When you finally get your chance that Epic Weapon is useless since now they add new Open World Content and that same Guild is camping the best thing. There is no Competition, the largest guild will get all the loots first no matter what. Did people even play other MMORPG that have Open World Content and it become the biggest problem? Take example for Aion. They have both Instances and Open World Bosses. But they make the best weapon Open World boss only. Guess what happen? The largest Guild will camp that area none stop. The drop was really low so it was being camp by the same Guild constantly. They would park their alts their and the minutes boss show up, the whole Guild was there. Do we really need to see this in the game?

What is wrong with Instances? Everyone getting a fair chance here. It is still a Competition if you like it that way. Like I said before make the Instances hard and challenging. Whoever can form the most skills, mix and match different class together, put tactic and skill in going through the Instances get the drop at the end. You can make it rare drop for the competition who get the gears first. All this without the frustration of NM camping, big guild dominant the whole area, and you will never get your turn. You know I play FFXIV since Beta and I never done stronghold. Why? Because every time I'm there some Guild is already doing it. It is not fun running there like a maniac who get there first. It is not competition, I think it very stupid and just whoever zerge the fastest. By the time you can run it, the Stronghold become useless as new contents come out.

First off, the largest entity does not always get the claim/kill. That has been a fact since 2003 with FFXI. My linkshell, for instance, is relatively small compared to most of the member hoarding monsters out there. We kill Stronghold NMs lowman. Everyday. We out claim 18 people. Everyday. We monopolize camps. Everyday.

Stop putting false stereotypes to things you clearly do not understand. Quality > Quantity.

Secondly there is nothing WRONG with instancing. a majority if not ALL the people clamoring for more open world content want the SAME AMOUNT of instanced content to mirror it. This is called equilibrium. Open world is just as fair as instanced in terms of actually BEING competitive. The same sad sob story is being taught in our schools and our sports teams by people just like you. "Every kid needs a trophy even from the losing team" ect. It's sad.

If you can't compete in open world then stick to instancing. That option will always be there for you OBVIOUSLY since yoshida wants to take the game into instanced content for endgame. But if people want open world content don't crucify them in a forum post.