DPS who do 4k worth of damage = garbage tier

[SaitoHikari]

When it comes to harder content(Ex,Savage,Ulti), I care about the other 7 members in my group. That being said I try my hardest to make whatever I'm currently running go as smooth as possible. A lot of people don't know how they're doing and coast by without ever really knowing they're under performing, which has lead to some rather uncomfortable situation like the post mentioned about about the Sam/Drg. If a rating or something was implemented at the end of a duty I think it would quell some of those issues. I know everyone would feel a lot better losing to a roll that was equally earn as a group.

It's not just that either.

I feel that the harassment towards people under-performing in parties is currently disproportionately nasty towards tank and healer contribution rather than the DPS. And I imagine part of it is because of the view that many see DPS as expendable for various reasons not even related to parsing at all. At the same time, the tanks and healers perpetuating it themselves are likely also doing it precisely because the community is now reaching a point where there's mutual distrust among public parties, and they cannot counter underperforming toxic DPS shifting the blame around without outright admitting that they're parsing themselves.

Being able to see tank and healer contribution towards a fight is very easy. But for DPS, it is ridiculously hard, and accountability is difficult to gauge. People go by enmity meters, but the problem with that is that most top-tier DPS will keep it as low as possible, because not only will they probably want to give the tank some room to switch out of tank stance and into DPS mode safely without worrying about the well being of their teammates, it's also because they know they will do so much damage that they will freaking die if they don't mitigate their enmity properly. And nothing tanks DPS faster than death.

[Gin_Gray]

I agree, unless you have a parser or know the rotation for everything as well as timers its very hard to pinpoint which dps is doing well. Unlike if you simply look at a tank in tank stand or a healer sitting idly around. Its rare that anyone take the L or responsibility for anything, but with that said all anyone can do is remove and reform with like minded people. Still when it comes to current harder content sub 4k is pretty low depending on the fight.

[Cyreil]

Ya know Kaiva, I honestly don't think a question mark was going to prevent the direction this thread was going to go.

[RiyahArp]

Being able to see tank and healer contribution towards a fight is very easy. But for DPS, it is ridiculously hard, and accountability is difficult to gauge.

I'm not sure the toxicity would be erased if you saw dps. If anything people might just end up being toxic to the sam and drg even if they don't act like idiots. It would be worse because in their mind they are justified, and the drg and sam would have to eat it and endure the kick. I think over time it might make people gunshy in the same way they are of healers and tanks, because if there's a decent enough negativity towards failure people become risk averse and avoid things as not to get reamed out.

[MoroMurasaki]

I'm not sure the toxicity would be erased if you saw dps. If anything people might just end up being toxic to the sam and drg even if they don't act like idiots. It would be worse because in their mind they are justified, and the drg and sam would have to eat it and endure the kick. I think over time it might make people gunshy in the same way they are of healers and tanks, because if there's a decent enough negativity towards failure people become risk averse and avoid things as not to get reamed out.

I believe the SAM and DRG in Hyo and Cass's example getting kicked wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, though. Before anyone cries toxicity read the rest of the post.

It was a farm, not a learning or clear party. Farm parties are designed to clear a fight multiple times. That party was lucky that they had some strong DPS with them (Hyo on BRD in particular is kinda magical to watch) but if all the dps in the party were performing at the level of that DRG and SAM there is no way they would ever clear even with perfect mechanic execution because they just couldn't beat enrage.

To me this means those dps were overreaching and venturing into content they weren't prepared for, at least not in a farm party. By all means join learning parties to better nail down mechanics and to learn the job-specific adjustments needed to improve personal dps, even clear parties would be fine in my opinion, but if you're going to try to farm something you should be able to pull your own weight.

That's the crux of this discussion - dps pulling their own weight. A DRG or god forbid a SAM doing less dps in a "farm" than I did on RDM in my first clear is simply not keeping up and they need to practice more before they try again at that level. I would venture to say that even joining a farm party when your dps is so insufficent for the content is an act of toxicity in and of it's self except there is a very real chance that SAM and DRG had absolutely no idea what they were contributing or in this case lacking.

So no, I don't think everyone having the ability to parse would generate more toxicity. If anything it would inhibit it. A PF could go up to farm Tsukuyomi requiring DPS to be over 4.5k dps in a prior clear or looking for a certain percentile in damage. At that point if a person joins one of those parties and isn't qualified to they've put themself in that situation. The difference is get get to be aware of where their own performance is and the requisite performance level of the party their joining lands - if those intersect, great! If not? Move on or make your own group. No one is blind in that situation.

The beauty of it is that if Joe Schmo makes some kind of offensive or harrassing statememt about some pug dps' contribution in a leveling dungeon the chat logs and report button still work. Parsers don't mean carte blanche on rudeness and improprieties.

Oh, dear. I will of course cease posting immediately in case the opinion of someone I don't know and have never talked to decreases further.

Thank god.

[Ruf]

Funny, when I looked at it, I saw it as a simple factual statement and/or a demonstration that a lot of people have been parsed and their logs uploaded even if they didn't upload it themselves.

That was pointing out a player as there was a quote on that post. Kalisto said:

Whenever new content is launched that we all had to start from the bottom and work ourselves up together, people calling others garbage tier have no clue what they're saying.

& so Noctus quoted him saying that:

You did 2300 DPS on DRG in o5s with a single death (9:04) on May 7th (kill time 10:04).

which brings to singling someone out & unless I'm mistaken,they didn't ask for approval to post that (as Kaliesto seem to be the actual person althought no name was stated on post actual statement written from NoctusT either...)IT WAS QUOTED.While I liked a lot of things you posted before, I disliked that one Maeka.The way this thread & posts look to me is that someone is feinting a topic & then apologising "changing race & what not then I see teams of players ganging up together as "strongs vs weaks' across several forums" & I am quite sure it is not just there but also on discord as it keep being brought up.In the end it looks like you changed arm with that last post to me.

P.s: Idc how you view it, but I do care about my view & I would love to quote that while I'm at it.

to insult me I would first have to value your opinion" for me to value your opinion I would first have to care that this random ass person online is worth the comments they made.

In other words, Idc for what parsers users have to say althought I do agree that knowing your numbers help, HyoMinPark & his/her crew(often misreading.misquoting.imo) can just keep thinking what they think, it wont change, but I will say this , experience is difficult to see & gauge & that specially throughtout the form of posts. If they are wanting to keep thinking that nobody want to work with each others because we disagree on said standing point of view & that there is only one true way to do things well its up to them.Me on my end i'll say this, keep up the 4k ppl! If you parse low but dodge better,then clearly...I think you are better even with lower grade gears.Knowledge & skills\over cash shops & \over parsers &\over single class 24/7 play"At that point if you have both its the best of course... but!

Funny, when I looked at it, I saw it as a simple factual statement and/or a demonstration that a lot of people have been parsed and their logs uploaded even if they didn't upload it themselves.

I do not find it funny.

[RiyahArp]

I believe the SAM and DRG in Hyo and Cass's example getting kicked wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, though.

It would be funny if they required that, because I'm guessing you'd instantly lose 30% of people willing to join farm parties. keep in mind if 5000 is the average, the amount of people 4500 and below is going to be roughly equal to those 5500 and higher. But I meant more that people are a lot more toxic in general when they think its justified, and I bet even in learning or clear parties you'l start to see it taken out openly on the low dps in the same way people leave after one or two wipes in content. and in time, the people remaining would reply back in kind. It would get a bit meaner, because it could now.

[TaranTatsuuchi]

It would be funny if they required that, because I'm guessing you'd instantly lose 30% of people willing to join farm parties. keep in mind if 5000 is the average, the amount of people 4500 and below is going to be roughly equal to those 5500 and higher. But I meant more that people are a lot more toxic in general when they think its justified, and I bet even in learning or clear parties you'l start to see it taken out openly on the low dps in the same way people leave after one or two wipes in content. and in time, the people remaining would reply back in kind. It would get a bit meaner, because it could now.

I don't see any reason to believe SE's stance on harassment would change any if there were to be an objective measure of everyone's performance...

[RiyahArp]

..you're not getting nailed for harassment over for using a parser, though. Harassment isn't "someone was mean to me." If that were the case half the people in MMOs would be banned at one time or another.

Soooo.... I really don't have a dog in this fight, but a few things are off about this argument:

not really. both of those probably would be a standard deviation off, and generally skill settles in a bell curve. Most people cluster around the middle, with relatively few at the extremes. If you mean people would be nice and not mean, well, thats a fundamental disagreement that could only be proven by it actually happening.

[NoctusT]

It would be funny if they required that, because I'm guessing you'd instantly lose 30% of people willing to join farm parties. keep in mind if 5000 is the average, the amount of people 4500 and below is going to be roughly equal to those 5500 and higher.

Soooo.... I really don't have a dog in this fight, but a few things are off about this argument:

1) You're pulling a bunch of numbers out of thin air with no basis for them.

2) You're assuming a lot of stuff about people considering there is no in game parser "officially" speaking.

3) Do you mean that people will become more open about this if square added an in-game parser? That's a rather big assumption to make since Square's current rules are there to prevent or report such harassment. If Square does include a parser, I don't understand why they'd change the rules.

4) There's a big difference between "clear party" bad dps and "not knowing a basic rotation for your main job" bad DPS.

4.5) If someone is harassing someone in a learning party about their "clear party" bad DPS then they're really not someone you want to be raiding with in the first place.


If you have a monk in a learning party that's doing 4k in their opener, that's really really bad. So bring this in line with the main topic of this thread, here's why you'd kick such a monk:
If they can't be bothered to learn a basic opener for their main job, how can you expect them to properly learn mechanics and not be a drain on the team's resources?

By team resources here I mean the time spent wiping to mechanics because this monk isn't doing them/ hasn't bothered looking them up. Or the MP wasted by the healers/RDM/SMN on raising said monk because he died.

Mind you I'm not saying this hypothetical monk is garbage just that they should really learn how to play their job if they wanna raid.

EDIT: browser is being a bad boy. Also the char limit in these forums makes me cry.