DPS who do 4k worth of damage = garbage tier

[Jellybums]

So we should let "subpar" dps be, while the players who actually try to do their jobs will have to do even more dps so that the group don't hit the enrage? As I said before, I don't feel like letting people in ignorance is showing them kindness.

There is no shaming if they see the parse for themselves. And it would avoid the situation that Bourne_Endeavor spoke of before this one :

Does it seems like a normal situation to you? That the good players are the one being "shamed" as you like to say it while the bad one is putting pressure on everyone while dragging the fight for him and for the other?

But how can you reason people like that without a parser? I don't think you can. Or at least, not as long as the ToS will continue to block you from stating the truth.

In my opinion, bad players aren't the victims. The victims are actually everyone who has to deal with them.


Plus, even though "pressure" did happen at the start of the thread, it finally quiet down, and now people have really civile discussion. I really don't think that people are fragile enough to be hurt by that, and I like to think that they are also smart enough to read after the few firsts pages before making their own opinion on the topic.

I'm just saying it's wrong to call them garbage becasue we all aren't on the same page when it comes to progression. And since you've mentioned parsers, not everyone has access to them. I don't. But I would assume many of us in the same boat wanna be better today than we were yesterday, squeezing in as many buffs and damage per CD as we can because that's the fun of the game. Or keeping party members alive as much as we can, while without parsers so we can't discriminate. Anyway parsers are another discussion.

As for Bourne's anecdote, jerks with or without parsers are real and nobody should feel like a victim. You can stay knocked down and be a victim of your circumstance, or you brush it off and get back up. Your choice. Anyway, getting on the game and off the PC. Thank you for the mature discussion. Have a good day, everyone.

[MoroMurasaki]

Calling someone not making the cut as garbage is not and should never be acceptable. He/she just doesn't make the cut for savage. That's it. Let's not just place standards on performance but behavior as well towards other players, and keep this community respectful. Also keep our expectations realistic and save ourselves the disappointment.

I agree with this. No one should be called garbage based on their performance in a video game, it's silly. The difference is that there are people in this thread who are arguing that any cretique of performance is inherently disrespectful. These two things are not the same.

If I joined a party and there was a real underperformer there and I explained to them what they were doing incorrectly that was holding us back from clearing (be it mech or dps related) I am not a bad person to do that. If I walked into the party and called them trash clearly I would be an asshole.

These two things are being lumped together and one group of people is defending one (the reasonable cretique) while another group is attacking another (calling people trash based on performance) so in essense each group is arguing with no one.

Further issue comes from people not being able to accept the idea that hitting 4k dps in current 360/370 gear (especially in a more dps-focused job) is objectively subpar.

Let's look at equivalency for a moment. A party with one dps that does 4k might be fine in earlier Savage turns but if you've get everyone in the party performing at that level you simply don't beat enrage. This means that, objectively, dping 4k dps is not enough in the current tier if you don't want to burden your party with picking up your slack.

From there it isn't a stretch to understand carrying this idea of party responsibility into more casual content and feeling a bit slighted when your teammates are clearly not trying as hard as you are. As someone who tries their hardest all the time I don't feel okay seeing a healer stand still for 4 gcds between heals because they are placing a burden on the rest of the party to do the damage those 4 lost attacks would have done.

I hope this gives you some insight into some of the conversation that's been going on.

And I'm in awe of your ability to try and stay relevant in a discussion by using tumblr-level comebacks when you have nothing else to say. Brava.

All you've contributed is something for me to conplain about and laugh at with others on discord. Thanks I guess? Stay salty and memeable!

[Crystal_Raven]

If I joined a party and there was a real underperformer there and I explained to them what they were doing incorrectly that was holding us back from clearing (be it mech or dps related) I am not a bad person to do that. If I walked into the party and called them trash clearly I would be an asshole.

The reason why "garbage tier" exists is specifically because there are those people that are bad, underperform, hurt the entire party, force the other to have to pick up their slack all while refusing to better themselves and claiming they are good and everyone else has a problem, any constructive criticism and pointers are taken offensively as if the other person insulted your mother.

Underperforming in itself is fine, as i've stated before, there are very few players that can simply pop in a brand new raid they've never done before and still achieve above average performance, and yes, this does happen, some people are capable of this. The majority are not.

The issue here isn't with underperforming players that wish to learn and take advice to their rotation and tips to better themselves, the issue here is with those who claim they are good, are under the average, refuse to better themselves. That is why the term "garbage tier" exists.

It is in no way meant for the players who are simply bad but wish to better themselves.

I find it shameful to even consider a person trying to improve as "garbage tier." However, a poor performer in a difficult raid refusing to improve, that is garbage tier material.

[xxvaynxx]

4k+ is fine but it has to depend on fight and the job.
Though 4k and under is low however as a dps.

Like a job such as samurai and black mage should try to never be around 4k, more so if they didn't die. I think about the only fight that would make you sit around 4k+ as those two jobs is byakko.

[Lunaxia]

All you've contributed is something for me to conplain about and laugh at with others on discord. Thanks I guess? Stay salty and memeable!

Flattered you spend so much time thinking about me. Anytime!

[Asiragan]

I know you don't talk to me... but... many scenarios where dps say someone else is shit/bad/etc, where I, as a tank out dps them. People just got by asuming they do good without proof,while people who do know it, wont even say it, most of the time. I certainly know its a shame a tank out dps a actual dps, but I won't tell them, they will find out at some point and only they can have a reaction to it.

Well, I wasn't really talking to anyone here, but if you recognize yourself in Bourne's example then it just add further to the point, sadly.

Likewise, I share your opinion. What irks me to no end isn't inexperience, but players who absolutely refuse to better themselves yet get upset when everyone else doesn't wish to tolerant it. Many of those same people scream about it "just being a game!" Well, it isn't a fun game when I joined that farm party and basically had to carry all but two people. Although, it certainly made me laugh.

Yes, and from what I gather, many on this forum share this opinion as well. I mean, it's almost just common sense at this point. If a new player, or even a returning player after many months/years of hiatus, come into the game and is receptive to advice and looking to improve, I think he'll be more often than not getting the useful info, or the help that this player needed, and sometimes even more. Even if they make a lot of mistakes, as long as they learn from it, I'd rather consider them as "learning players" rather than "bad players" as the later would just be stupid.

But the other who are 70 since months, not aiming to improve, to even learn a basic rotation, or not even caring about it, are just being selfish who only look at their personal comfort rather than the play as an actual team. And I think that they are better suited for solo RPG rather than MMORPG when it comes to battle content. Those are the ones that I would call "bad players".

I'm just saying it's wrong to call them garbage becasue we all aren't on the same page when it comes to progression. And since you've mentioned parsers, not everyone has access to them. I don't. But I would assume many of us in the same boat wanna be better today than we were yesterday, squeezing in as many buffs and damage per CD as we can because that's the fun of the game. Or keeping party members alive as much as we can, while without parsers so we can't discriminate. Anyway parsers are another discussion.

As for Bourne's anecdote, jerks with or without parsers are real and nobody should feel like a victim. You can stay knocked down and be a victim of your circumstance, or you brush it off and get back up. Your choice. Anyway, getting on the game and off the PC. Thank you for the mature discussion. Have a good day, everyone.

I think you are still locked on the title of the thread, which is fair, but OP already said that it was a mistake on his part and that there's nothing he could do to edit it, sadly. It would be nice if a CM could change it.

Anyway, have a nice day too

[Maeka]

You're 100% wrong- Kaiva is in no way responsible for your actions.

Wait, what?

What do you mean, "my actions"?

What'd I do?

And I said in the very same post you quoted (that you didn't quote) that it's not the OP's fault that people decided to have a go at each other in this thread. But I, myself, didn't participate in it.

[Sebazy]

And I'm in awe of your ability to try and stay relevant in a discussion by using tumblr-level comebacks when you have nothing else to say. Brava.

Says the person with multiple posts that add nothing except salt and animated gifs to the discussion?

Give it a rest already please? This was an interesting topic for a few pages, now it's just a poisonous wasteland.

[Lunaxia]

Says the person with multiple posts that add nothing except salt and animated gifs to the discussion?

Give it a rest already please? This was an interesting topic for a few pages, now it's just a poisonous wasteland.

No? If everyone else is allowed to give opinions and act needlessly hostile under poor pretenses then I'm free to say something about it, especially when it involves behaviour directed at another player. I couldn't care less what transpired since or if I'm "ruining" it, my posts don't need to automatically halt any previous discussion.

As for gifs, if someone says something ridiculous I'll respond in kind.

[Linx0r]

Snip!!!

I have read the entirety of the thread and the issue is your wording. Everyone has different perceptions on words that are thrown down on a page and this obviously made some people angry. Hopefully in the future you are more careful with your words. But, kudos for manning up and apologizing. It takes guts to admit fault. This thread will die off soon enough