DPS who do 4k worth of damage = garbage tier

[RiyahArp]

kaiva, people are talking generally about the trend for players in a mass, not you specifically. If people give you grief in pms and in game, just blacklist them. It's not Kaiva saying this, its more people are strident for or against the idea of a player being garbage or not. You are ok, its just the anxiety I think. I know the feeling, I have it in another way.

Jellybums, yeah the issue isn't improving as much as the labeling. There's a lot of very negative talk when it comes to dps performance, kind of centered around a view of the player as burden or hindrance. Again, I think SE has a little bit to blame here due to savage setup, but players get really intense when people aren't perceived as carrying their own weight. It's weird to me because people often play this as a refuge from the same attitudes in the real world, and in this imaginary one we just bring the baggage back in.

[HyoMinPark]

I'm straight out saying you can't fat shame people into going to the gym, or shame players into joining a Discord server. And this goes to everyone who unwittingly have misplaced their critiques here of DPS performance right in this thread. You don't have to call other players garbage tier but by critiquing "subpar" DPS performance here, you reinforce the message of subpar as garbage tier. Look, it may not be dick pic in a billboard advertising a car or insurance, but if it's shaped like one and perceived as one, it's just as inappropriate. Same with all the critiques here. This isn't the thread where you can be helpful without reinforcing a very negative message. That's just how it is.

Addressing the “shaming” part of this: if the person wants to improve, how is one shaming them by advising they join communities that are well-equipped to help them improve? I generally don’t offer advice in-game anymore because of the amount of backlash you tend to receive for even suggesting it, but if I hear of someone wanting to get better, I try to point them to a place where they can at least start. I’ve had positive experiences in the Balance Discord, so I’m inclined to direct people who want to learn there.

[MoroMurasaki]

I'm straight out saying you can't fat shame people into going to the gym, or shame players into joining a Discord server. And this goes to everyone who unwittingly have misplaced their critiques here of DPS performance right in this thread. You don't have to call other players garbage tier but by critiquing "subpar" DPS performance here, you reinforce the message of subpar as garbage tier. Look, it may not be dick pic in a billboard advertising a car or insurance, but if it's shaped like one and perceived as one, it's just as inappropriate. Same with all the critiques here. This isn't the thread where you can be helpful without reinforcing a very negative message. That's just how it is

I feel legitimately bad for posting this after InkstainedGwyn's lovely appeal to logic, reason and decency but... take your entire post and the steps you took to formulate it back to tumblr, please.

There have been people getting and giving helpful advice and encouragement throughout this thread and you want to latch on to the negative. It's legitimately insane to me. Positive reinforcement and help is a good thing no matter where it is found.

[Lunaxia]

I asked no less...

You only bothered to ask for clarification after making a snap judgement no less than three times between you, by which point all he'd done is say you were wrong. Then you called him passive-aggressive and toxic and acted as if that's all you'd done all along. You didn't request anything before then, and I don't see anything condescending about remarking on it.

I mean, I did. But I take it you skipped over that part of the thread.

...nevermind.

snip

There was a reason why it hasn't "been a thing" for several posts, which is part of what drove me to saying something.

snip

And I'm here because I agreed with Issac. How is that any different?

I'm not even going to bother commenting on the irony of "civil debates becoming hostile ones" when practically every thread I've seen some people here in has turned into a twenty page tangent arguing about something or other, regardless of my presence.

boop

No, I just comment on behaviour I don't agree with, and I found what's transpired over the course of this thread nauseating. If that's aggression then... all right, I guess that makes me aggressive.

Coincidentally, I have argued with both Moro and Miste in other threads. Guess what? They always remained civil because neither are passive aggressive.

[MoroMurasaki]

... all right, I guess that makes me aggressive.

I am in awe of your ability to prove the assertions of others about you correct with the very actions you deny those assertions with. It's like you are a living irony machine and a small part of me is jealous.

[Crystal_Raven]

I'm straight out saying you can't fat shame people into going to the gym, or shame players into joining a Discord server. And this goes to everyone who unwittingly have misplaced their critiques here of DPS performance right in this thread. You don't have to call other players garbage tier but by critiquing "subpar" DPS performance here, you reinforce the message of subpar as garbage tier. Look, it may not be dick pic in a billboard advertising a car or insurance, but if it's shaped like one and perceived as one, it's just as inappropriate. Same with all the critiques here. This isn't the thread where you can be helpful without reinforcing a very negative message. That's just how it is.

And I wouldn't want any newbie or returner to read through this possibly anxiety inducing experience of a thread. There are good threads in this forum that are helpful, plenty of them, minus the pressure.

Being very good comes with pressure. The better you want to get, the more pressure you will have on you, it's almost impossible to have one without the other.

Those of us that can be relaxed while still performing well are rare, the majority of people, when it comes to improving there will be pressure. Even in this thread, reading through it, the people who have stated they are trying to improve have been given advice and positive reinforcement, while those insisting that poor performance should be rewarded were met with negative responses.

Subpar performance is referred to as "garbage tier" because of the savage content in the game. If you achieve 4k or lower on average in raids that are savage rated, then in essence, that is garbage. Rather crude word but it gets the point across very well. In non-savage raids 4k or less may be acceptable, but in savage, it is not and should never be accepted. That is obviously only with BiS gear.

If you would've actually read through the entire thread, you would've noticed quite a few positive comments related to people that want to improve. Clearly you did not see them, or chose to ignore them.

[HyoMinPark]

You only bothered to ask for clarification after making a snap judgement no less than three times between you, by which point all he'd done is say you were wrong. Then you called him passive-aggressive and toxic and acted as if that's all you'd done all along. You didn't request anything before then, and I don't see anything condescending about remarking on it.

I requested it immediately after his reply to me commenting on both his and MageBlack’s comments, which both carried negative connotations. Go back and read them. I didn’t call him passive aggressive until he responded with “This person seems to have painted a picture of me”. Because that comment is very much passive-aggressive, in my opinion—it offers nothing to the conversation, and, in my perspective, was a failed attempt at trying to sound snarky. Which, again, offered nothing to the conversation, much less his position or what actually made him feel sick to his stomach. The conversation had shifted to parsers, and Mage’s comment was explicitedly about parsers; Issac’s came immediately before it, and after the conversation had shifted. I asked them to try and see past their prejudices. Me calling Issac “a toxic one” was in regards to his comments adding no depth to his position, and instead of giving depth to my first response to his negative comment, he replied with a painter comment—not only to me but to another poster. Again, he offered no clarification, and got angry when people got frustrated with him for offering no clarification. With only the flow of conversation to go by, how wrong is it to presume the thing that “made him sick” was parsers? Or DPS?

His comment regarding the quote arrows was also very condescending, and I don’t know how you can even attempt to paint it otherwise.

...nevermind

My first assumption towards your remark there was that you were making a jab at the way I speak. I’m sorry that you take issues with that if that’s the case, but that’s just how I talk. If you don’t like it, you’re free to add me to your Ignore List. Unless you’re insinuating that I wasn’t gracious about MageBlack’s explanation? Because, if I recall, I did tell him I appreciated it.

There was a reason why it hasn't "been a thing" for several posts, which is part of what drove me to saying something.

The aside between Issac and the rest had nothing to do with the thread topic. It was a derailment just like your posts and this back and forth with you are a derailment—he made comments people didn’t agree with, people asked him to clarify, and he still refused to do so while continuing to get angry with people “painting pictures” of him. Don’t want people to assume your position? Why don’t you try clarifying it from the get-go? Is that really so hard to do? I guess it is. It wasn’t “pushing him into silence” or whatever it was that you called it—from what I see, he left of his own accord.

If that's aggression then... all right, I guess that makes me aggressive.

[quote from other poster]

Then what is this, then?


I’m done arguing with you, because you’re just wanting to argue. If you want to actually have a conversation, my Discord is in my signature.

[Jellybums]

Addressing the “shaming” part of this: if the person wants to improve, how is one shaming them by advising they join communities that are well-equipped to help them improve? I generally don’t offer advice in-game anymore because of the amount of backlash you tend to receive for even suggesting it, but if I hear of someone wanting to get better, I try to point them to a place where they can at least start. I’ve had positive experiences in the Balance Discord, so I’m inclined to direct people who want to learn there.

For one I wouldn't put Balance Discord keywords together with 4k DPS garbage tier FFXIV or whatever's search engine optimized the same way I wouldn't put "too fat for prom" with acai berries or whatever the fat loss trend is. Because like it or not, you'll be eliciting feelings of shame and anxiety with your call to action. Something like Potato to Savage DPS in 5 Mins a Day would make someone more inclined to listen since they're not on the defensive.

[HyoMinPark]

For one I wouldn't put Balance Discord keywords together with 4k DPS garbage tier FFXIV or whatever's search engine optimized the same way I wouldn't put "too fat for prom" with acai berries or whatever the fat loss trend is. Because like it or not, you'll be eliciting feelings of shame and anxiety with your call to action. Something like Potato to Savage DPS in 5 Mins a Day would make someone more inclined to listen since they're not on the defensive.

I don’t really think the purpose of this thread is a “call to action”, though. It’s more so an opinion thread, and there are a myriad of opinions in here. Not all of them are positive, and not all of them are negative. I don’t think you can have an opinion thread without a mixture of both. To be honest, I’m a little bit confused as to what you are getting at with your post.

[Asiragan]

I'm straight out saying you can't fat shame people into going to the gym, or shame players into joining a Discord server. And this goes to everyone who unwittingly have misplaced their critiques here of DPS performance right in this thread. You don't have to call other players garbage tier but by critiquing "subpar" DPS performance here, you reinforce the message of subpar as garbage tier. Look, it may not be dick pic in a billboard advertising a car or insurance, but if it'sshaped like one and perceived as one, it's just as inappropriate. Same with all the critiques here. This isn't the thread where you can be helpful without reinforcing a very negative message. That's just how it is.

And I wouldn't want any newbie or returner to read through this possibly anxiety inducing experience of a thread. There are good threads in this forum that are helpful, plenty of them, minus the pressure.

So we should let "subpar" dps be, while the players who actually try to do their jobs will have to do even more dps so that the group don't hit the enrage?
As I said before, I don't feel like letting people in ignorance is showing them kindness.

There is no shaming if they see the parse for themselves. And it would avoid the situation that Bourne_Endeavor spoke of before this one :

Case in point, HyoMin and I had a Samurai laugh at us, claiming we "sucked" and to get out of his Tsuki party. DPS was approximately....

Hyo: 5,000
Me: 3,900 (was left dead on the floor for almost a minute)
WAR: 3,600
SAM: 3,100
DRG: 2.600

See the problem there? Oh, the DRG didn't die either. And this is what annoys me with "parsers are just toxic players" argument. Clearly, the SAM wasn't parsing yet felt he was carrying the party. Worst part about it? They were both wearing i350-370 gear.

Does it seems like a normal situation to you? That the good players are the one being "shamed" as you like to say it while the bad one is putting pressure on everyone while dragging the fight for him and for the other?

But how can you reason people like that without a parser? I don't think you can. Or at least, not as long as the ToS will continue to block you from stating the truth.

In my opinion, bad players aren't the victims. The victims are actually everyone who has to deal with them.


Plus, even though "pressure" did happen at the start of the thread, it finally quiet down, and now people have really civile discussion. I really don't think that people are fragile enough to be hurt by that, and I like to think that they are also smart enough to read after the few firsts pages before making their own opinion on the topic.