DPS who do 4k worth of damage = garbage tier

[Asiragan]

The comment wasn't directed at anyone and could have meant anything. What you choose to read into it doesn't warrant that sort of response.

No, it isn't. But that isn't what happened.

The guy got multiple occasion to explain his position on this thread, and elaborate his opinion. Instead of doing it, he made other posts with some sentences that makes even less sense than his first one, even getting somewhat aggressive. He was clearly in the wrong for that.

Plus, this isn't what this topic is about.

In a garbage tier thread, really? Like indirectly telling people you're not good enough so join this group if you don't wanna be looked down on? Not everyone's stuck up. Not everyone gears up like a pro and plays like one or even geared the best at all. Because guess what, not everyone can sink hours into this game or stay subbed all the time. And this thread slick shames people who can't keep up just because you want them to adjust their gameplay to your benefit. What's in it for them? To be spared the shame? How motivating. No wonder there are folks who resist just to resist. You don't see that? You may mean well but if you're not doing/saying things right, your message gets lost.

Nobody on this topic has asked anyone to play like a pro. Most people here have said that it's good to mess things up as long as you learn from them and you're not a burden to your group. And if people advise to join the discord of the Balance, it is mainly because it is full of people ready to help you, and a mine of information on this game. Nobody forced anyone to join.

You're just trying to transform your argument so that people who do not want to improve are seen as victims, which is wrong. It's a MMORPG, you work with teammates, as a team. You do not get carried away by others because you do not want to learn basic rotation.

Minako_Nightsong, for example, said she was trying to improve as a bard. I did not see a single post shaming her. Only words of encouragement or advice.

[Jellybums]

Nobody on this topic has asked anyone to play like a pro. Most people here have said that it's good to mess things up as long as you learn from them and you're not a burden to your group. And if people advise to join the discord of the Balance, it is mainly because it is full of people ready to help you, and a mine of information on this game. Nobody forced anyone to join.

You're just trying to transform your argument so that people who do not want to improve are seen as victims, which is wrong. It's a MMORPG, you work with teammates, as a team. You do not get carried away by others because you do not want to learn basic rotation.

Minako_Nightsong, for example, said she was trying to improve as a bard. I did not see a single post shaming her. Only words of encouragement or advice.

I'm straight out saying you can't fat shame people into going to the gym, or shame players into joining a Discord server. And this goes to everyone who unwittingly have misplaced their critiques here of DPS performance right in this thread. You don't have to call other players garbage tier but by critiquing "subpar" DPS performance here, you reinforce the message of subpar as garbage tier. Look, it may not be dick pic in a billboard advertising a car or insurance, but if it's shaped like one and perceived as one, it's just as inappropriate. Same with all the critiques here. This isn't the thread where you can be helpful without reinforcing a very negative message. That's just how it is.

And I wouldn't want any newbie or returner to read through this possibly anxiety inducing experience of a thread. There are good threads in this forum that are helpful, plenty of them, minus the pressure.

[HyoMinPark]

I'm straight out saying you can't fat shame people into going to the gym, or shame players into joining a Discord server. And this goes to everyone who unwittingly have misplaced their critiques here of DPS performance right in this thread. You don't have to call other players garbage tier but by critiquing "subpar" DPS performance here, you reinforce the message of subpar as garbage tier. Look, it may not be dick pic in a billboard advertising a car or insurance, but if it's shaped like one and perceived as one, it's just as inappropriate. Same with all the critiques here. This isn't the thread where you can be helpful without reinforcing a very negative message. That's just how it is.

Addressing the “shaming” part of this: if the person wants to improve, how is one shaming them by advising they join communities that are well-equipped to help them improve? I generally don’t offer advice in-game anymore because of the amount of backlash you tend to receive for even suggesting it, but if I hear of someone wanting to get better, I try to point them to a place where they can at least start. I’ve had positive experiences in the Balance Discord, so I’m inclined to direct people who want to learn there.

[Jellybums]

Addressing the “shaming” part of this: if the person wants to improve, how is one shaming them by advising they join communities that are well-equipped to help them improve? I generally don’t offer advice in-game anymore because of the amount of backlash you tend to receive for even suggesting it, but if I hear of someone wanting to get better, I try to point them to a place where they can at least start. I’ve had positive experiences in the Balance Discord, so I’m inclined to direct people who want to learn there.

For one I wouldn't put Balance Discord keywords together with 4k DPS garbage tier FFXIV or whatever's search engine optimized the same way I wouldn't put "too fat for prom" with acai berries or whatever the fat loss trend is. Because like it or not, you'll be eliciting feelings of shame and anxiety with your call to action. Something like Potato to Savage DPS in 5 Mins a Day would make someone more inclined to listen since they're not on the defensive.

[HyoMinPark]

For one I wouldn't put Balance Discord keywords together with 4k DPS garbage tier FFXIV or whatever's search engine optimized the same way I wouldn't put "too fat for prom" with acai berries or whatever the fat loss trend is. Because like it or not, you'll be eliciting feelings of shame and anxiety with your call to action. Something like Potato to Savage DPS in 5 Mins a Day would make someone more inclined to listen since they're not on the defensive.

I don’t really think the purpose of this thread is a “call to action”, though. It’s more so an opinion thread, and there are a myriad of opinions in here. Not all of them are positive, and not all of them are negative. I don’t think you can have an opinion thread without a mixture of both. To be honest, I’m a little bit confused as to what you are getting at with your post.

[Jellybums]

I don’t really think the purpose of this thread is a “call to action”, though. It’s more so an opinion thread, and there are a myriad of opinions in here. Not all of them are positive, and not all of them are negative. I don’t think you can have an opinion thread without a mixture of both. To be honest, I’m a little bit confused as to what you are getting at with your post.

It wasn't a call to action thread, but it took a life of its own long ago. And mention the discord server here enough, it might land on the first couple of pages of search engine results with keywords 4k DPS FFXIV or something. But anyway, I digress.

[MoroMurasaki]

I'm straight out saying you can't fat shame people into going to the gym, or shame players into joining a Discord server. And this goes to everyone who unwittingly have misplaced their critiques here of DPS performance right in this thread. You don't have to call other players garbage tier but by critiquing "subpar" DPS performance here, you reinforce the message of subpar as garbage tier. Look, it may not be dick pic in a billboard advertising a car or insurance, but if it's shaped like one and perceived as one, it's just as inappropriate. Same with all the critiques here. This isn't the thread where you can be helpful without reinforcing a very negative message. That's just how it is

I feel legitimately bad for posting this after InkstainedGwyn's lovely appeal to logic, reason and decency but... take your entire post and the steps you took to formulate it back to tumblr, please.

There have been people getting and giving helpful advice and encouragement throughout this thread and you want to latch on to the negative. It's legitimately insane to me. Positive reinforcement and help is a good thing no matter where it is found.

[Crystal_Raven]

I'm straight out saying you can't fat shame people into going to the gym, or shame players into joining a Discord server. And this goes to everyone who unwittingly have misplaced their critiques here of DPS performance right in this thread. You don't have to call other players garbage tier but by critiquing "subpar" DPS performance here, you reinforce the message of subpar as garbage tier. Look, it may not be dick pic in a billboard advertising a car or insurance, but if it's shaped like one and perceived as one, it's just as inappropriate. Same with all the critiques here. This isn't the thread where you can be helpful without reinforcing a very negative message. That's just how it is.

And I wouldn't want any newbie or returner to read through this possibly anxiety inducing experience of a thread. There are good threads in this forum that are helpful, plenty of them, minus the pressure.

Being very good comes with pressure. The better you want to get, the more pressure you will have on you, it's almost impossible to have one without the other.

Those of us that can be relaxed while still performing well are rare, the majority of people, when it comes to improving there will be pressure. Even in this thread, reading through it, the people who have stated they are trying to improve have been given advice and positive reinforcement, while those insisting that poor performance should be rewarded were met with negative responses.

Subpar performance is referred to as "garbage tier" because of the savage content in the game. If you achieve 4k or lower on average in raids that are savage rated, then in essence, that is garbage. Rather crude word but it gets the point across very well. In non-savage raids 4k or less may be acceptable, but in savage, it is not and should never be accepted. That is obviously only with BiS gear.

If you would've actually read through the entire thread, you would've noticed quite a few positive comments related to people that want to improve. Clearly you did not see them, or chose to ignore them.

[Jellybums]

Being very good comes with pressure. The better you want to get, the more pressure you will have on you, it's almost impossible to have one without the other.

Pressure that comes with the challenge of the job of course. You accept that when you take the job, no need to say. I'm speaking of peer pressure, specifically with labels/name calling/performance shaming.

Those of us that can be relaxed while still performing well are rare, the majority of people, when it comes to improving there will be pressure. Even in this thread, reading through it, the people who have stated they are trying to improve have been given advice and positive reinforcement, while those insisting that poor performance should be rewarded were met with negative responses.

Subpar performance is referred to as "garbage tier" because of the savage content in the game. If you achieve 4k or lower on average in raids that are savage rated, then in essence, that is garbage. Rather crude word but it gets the point across very well. In non-savage raids 4k or less may be acceptable, but in savage, it is not and should never be accepted. That is obviously only with BiS gear.

If you would've actually read through the entire thread, you would've noticed quite a few positive comments related to people that want to improve. Clearly you did not see them, or chose to ignore them.

That's the only thing I take issue with is the label, and commented on a bad ad placement in my opinion. Calling someone not making the cut as garbage is not and should never be acceptable. He/she just doesn't make the cut for savage. That's it. Let's not just place standards on performance but behavior as well towards other players, and keep this community respectful. Also keep our expectations realistic and save ourselves the disappointment.

[MoroMurasaki]

Calling someone not making the cut as garbage is not and should never be acceptable. He/she just doesn't make the cut for savage. That's it. Let's not just place standards on performance but behavior as well towards other players, and keep this community respectful. Also keep our expectations realistic and save ourselves the disappointment.

I agree with this. No one should be called garbage based on their performance in a video game, it's silly. The difference is that there are people in this thread who are arguing that any cretique of performance is inherently disrespectful. These two things are not the same.

If I joined a party and there was a real underperformer there and I explained to them what they were doing incorrectly that was holding us back from clearing (be it mech or dps related) I am not a bad person to do that. If I walked into the party and called them trash clearly I would be an asshole.

These two things are being lumped together and one group of people is defending one (the reasonable cretique) while another group is attacking another (calling people trash based on performance) so in essense each group is arguing with no one.

Further issue comes from people not being able to accept the idea that hitting 4k dps in current 360/370 gear (especially in a more dps-focused job) is objectively subpar.

Let's look at equivalency for a moment. A party with one dps that does 4k might be fine in earlier Savage turns but if you've get everyone in the party performing at that level you simply don't beat enrage. This means that, objectively, dping 4k dps is not enough in the current tier if you don't want to burden your party with picking up your slack.

From there it isn't a stretch to understand carrying this idea of party responsibility into more casual content and feeling a bit slighted when your teammates are clearly not trying as hard as you are. As someone who tries their hardest all the time I don't feel okay seeing a healer stand still for 4 gcds between heals because they are placing a burden on the rest of the party to do the damage those 4 lost attacks would have done.

I hope this gives you some insight into some of the conversation that's been going on.

And I'm in awe of your ability to try and stay relevant in a discussion by using tumblr-level comebacks when you have nothing else to say. Brava.

All you've contributed is something for me to conplain about and laugh at with others on discord. Thanks I guess? Stay salty and memeable!