DPS who do 4k worth of damage = garbage tier

[RiyahArp]

I’m curious as to why you would have to have someone actually on your server to mentor you. Why do you think that a mentor has to be on a mentee’s server to offer them advice or assistance?.

There's a big difference between some random telling me to go read the wiki, and an fc mate standing by me watching me on a dummy. Or who will start a learning party and roll healer if I'm a DPS. It's the difference between me doing it all alone and doing it with someone. If you play EVE online, they don't tell you to go to the discord, they tell you to join eve university or the militia, in game stuff, and thats a big part of that game's success.

The issue with “just ask the party” is that you can never be sure that you won’t get that one person who reports just because you post numbers, even if others were asking because they wanted to know where they stood, and numbers were posted with nothing more (i.e., no comments made about them, positive or negative). There have been a few posters in parser debates past that have blatantly admitted that they frequently report people who they even suspect are parsing. A lot of people do not share that they are because of those who would just report willy-nilly.

Making it official actually changes things quite a bit actually, especially about the ToS. And if you change the ToS, no one could get banned for using a third-party tool and that can change a lot how players interact with each over in a party..

...yeah, i get this. It's about needing to protect yourself. But lets just be honest with this, not cloak it in "Oh, I really want this so I can help people." I think people want this more for self-protection and the ability to kick for low dps openly. Because this isn't going to change the game positively; the amount of people who want to improve and don't already have some means of doing so are tiny. The people who report you aren't going to make use of that parser anyways.

I know that you cannot force players to get better, nor can you force them to care about doing so. That doesn’t mean I’m not going to tell people that there is always room for improvement, regardless of if they are purple, blue, green, or grey. I can’t control their desire for improvement, but I can certainly state that there is always an opportunity to. I just urge those players to not try and jump into harder content if they cannot commit the time and dedication to improving themselves for it.

I was thinking on this tonight and I think the problem is that people either think savage is one of two things:

1. its like driving a car
2. its like learning advanced math.

One side thinks that its like driving; its something anyone can do if they just apply themselves and vow to improve. So ideas are based on this. But it might be that savage is more like math, in which that simply doesn't work for a lot of people. In which case, all the discords in the world wont help..you are going to have to accept that and if you want the class cutoff to be Cs and higher, well, you're going to have people dropping the class.

Idk. I think people kind of assume number #1 a bit too much, when something like 4k dps is like getting a D- in a very hard class.

Ah, i forgot Xeno. If the dude streams he's not doing it for you, he's doing it for himself. If he does guides and acts as a community figure, I see it as noblesse oblige.

[HyoMinPark]

There's a big difference between some random telling me to go read the wiki, and an fc mate standing by me watching me on a dummy. Or who will start a learning party and roll healer if I'm a DPS. It's the difference between me doing it all alone and doing it with someone. If you play EVE online, they don't tell you to go to the discord, they tell you to join eve university or the militia, in game stuff, and thats a big part of that game's success.

There are always alternatives to that though. You can do a few things:
—Your mentor can make an alt on your server just to sit and watch your rotation
—You can record footage of you on a dummy and send it to your mentor for analysis
—You can even parse yourself on a dummy (if you have access to a parser) and send the logs to your mentor to look through

While I can understand wanting the mentor-mentee relationship to be more personal, there are more alternatives than just “go read the wiki”.

As for starting learning parties, that’s why it’s good to network. Most of the people I did TsukuEx learning with were not on my server—they were friends that I have made from other servers that I play with and talk to. And one of them I have been mentoring on BRD via sharing rotations, giving advice on Foe’s and IJ optimization, making budget gearsets for them that would be ideal for BRD, and looking over their logs.

And Discord isn’t the only option—we have Cross-world Linkshells now, and while the limit is to just one with 64 people in it, it’s still a place to start. And hopefully it will be expanded on in the future.

[Alaray]

There's a big difference between some random telling me to go read the wiki, and an fc mate standing by me watching me on a dummy. Or who will start a learning party and roll healer if I'm a DPS. It's the difference between me doing it all alone and doing it with someone. If you play EVE online, they don't tell you to go to the discord, they tell you to join eve university or the militia, in game stuff, and thats a big part of that game's success.

Then... make connections and try to find friends in FC's you become a part of, and try to make sure you jive with them?


I have plenty of in-game friends, some would stand with me by a dummy if I asked and they had time if I wanted to learn a new class or receive insight on my own to make sure I'm doing things correctly. I have friends in-game who'll go do Expert Roullette, Sigmascape normal, etc... with if asked and they have the time/energy. One of my friends sat me down and went through my previous, older, logs with me and explained a lot of things in this game to me that puzzled me before and helped me improve immensely as a player. I still have a lot of space for improvement, but it's all possible to receive what you're looking for if you put in the effort to search for it and be open about it -- you have to meet people halfway, at least, and can't just expect them to show up one day.

Personally, I don't use the discords. They're good sources of information, yes, and I am technically in the Balance but I don't often check there for information as I was quite lucky to have a few FC members who I received a lot of help from instead (by their own willingness to teach -- they're far, far better players than I am and their advice has proven invaluable).

In the same vein, I have friends who do use the Discord server. They improved and got better as well, often from looking for help and offering up their logs for people to pick through and analyze with them.

A Discord isn't useless. I don't like it due to the size and since it's a bit easier to make me uncomfortable with things due to my history, but that doesn't mean it's useless and a pointless resource to have to make use of if you wish to have a space to learn how to improve with an active desire to improve.

And, at the end of the day, I've seen plenty of discords blow up because of drama/rage/cliques. Same with FC's. Same with guilds in various other games as far back as 2005. It's not all that different in the end, unless you're in a FC of tightnit friends.

[Dualgunner]

Chat rooms have had active moderation since the dawn of time. Still doesn't stop them from cliques and drama.
If anything the tighter the moderation the worse the drama is when it shows up because the mod team gets so buddy buddy they circle the wagons incredibly fast. The kind of person who is a mod usually never sees the drama till its too late, and then they are honestly puzzled why everything went to crap so fast because they are part of the circle, not outside it. This is also how FCs in this game implode, too often.

If FCs face the same problems that Discords do, then what is the point of you saying "FCs should be used over Discord!"?

As for raiders, I'm just saying this because I don't think "oh, im SOOO helpful" works for what the raider wants to accomplish, or you wouldn't be complaining so much. You are already trying the carrot, but don't want to admit it might be the stick.

It seems more likely to me that maybe you just don't want to admit there's more to a raider than raiding.

[Asiragan]

...yeah, i get this. It's about needing to protect yourself. But lets just be honest with this, not cloak it in "Oh, I really want this so I can help people." I think people want this more for self-protection and the ability to kick for low dps openly. Because this isn't going to change the game positively; the amount of people who want to improve and don't already have some means of doing so are tiny. The people who report you aren't going to make use of that parser anyways.

No, I'm not nice enough to say "I really want this to help people", I'll be honest. And I'm actually quite bad at teaching others anyway.

If I parse, it's for myself and for my statics, since I'm the one doing the upload on FFlogs. So that I can better myself, or see if I had a better "score" than during the last time.

Actually, I never Pug for party as I prefer to go with my static, even for primals. Not that I disregard the people outside of it, but I'm not that comfortable with strangers, to say the truth.

My point is that when you find yourself in a party made by the party finder, whether it's for 24-man raid and such, sometimes people just end up leaving without saying a word. Or just kicking with the other person not even knowing what happened. Because they can't tell them. And if the person doesn't know that he's actually performing poorly, how do you want him to improve anyway?

The "funny" thing is that sometimes people are calling other "bad at dps" while they don't use a parser and don't see that they're actually the one dragging down the group...

And I really don't think that this is healthy for the community at all.

[RiyahArp]

There are always alternatives to that though. You can do a few things:
—Your mentor can make an alt on your server just to sit and watch your rotation
—You can record footage of you on a dummy and send it to your mentor for analysis
—You can even parse yourself on a dummy (if you have access to a parser) and send the logs to your mentor to look through

It isn't the same really. Because its all one sided. If they are there, it works both ways, you help them and they you. But with them off server, its they help you only, and the cynic in me says and has seen that it only lasts as long as they enjoy it. You need that parity.

As for networking, again it doesn't replace it being on your server. I know they are trying to push a semi-serverless model more these days, but just the fact you can only meet in instances makes it more of an appointment model than anything

My point is that when you find yourself in a party made by the party finder, whether it's for 24-man raid and such, sometimes people just end up leaving without saying a word. Or just kicking with the other person not even knowing what happened. Because they can't tell them. And if the person doesn't know that he's actually performing poorly, how do you want him to improve anyway?

The "funny" thing is that sometimes people are calling other "bad at dps" while they don't use a parser and don't see that they're actually the one dragging down the group...

And I really don't think that this is healthy for the community at all.

I think people would be a lot meaner if they knew. It becomes personal. If people avoid you for no reason, its saddening, but if they tell you they are because you have an annoying laugh, that will always be in the back of your mind.

[Sebazy]

If you guys were serious about that you'd already be doing it with your FC mates and building up a stable of people to play with who hit that dps target. You'd be making in-game FCs about raiding and mentoring them there, which is what older MMOs did with their raid populations. There's nothing stopping people from doing it already, the parser doesn't matter one bit. The fact that people need to constantly complain about people in ex and savage shows to me that no, they are not like that and won't ever will be, because they are too used to viewing people as burdens you resent carrying if they don't measure up.

There are a number of up and coming FCs all over the place and the unfortunate truth is that they are rarely a good environment to raid because their membership tends to be volatile. Not through drama or such, but rather they tend to be used as a stepping stone into the server's top rung raiding FCs. They are a fun place to be usually, but keeping a consistent and stable team going can be tough.

This is typically why discords such as the balance tend to be the better way to go. Even the forums here are actually pretty decent if you push the drama and assumptions aside TBH. Remember when Judge was giving me some tip top advice and tips on how to up my DPS in A12S without taking too many risks with my healing in Pugs? That little lot got me close to purple whilst still doing 95%+ healing in completely random PF groups.

Friendly and useful advice is out there and there's plenty of ways to get it, the way this community is means that you need to make the first step and ask for it though. If I help a group and they are using a wonky inefficient strat that's causing then I'll absolutely voice it. If I see someone doing something stupid on an individual level then chances are I won't (Case in point, the WHM I was in a Tsu farm with a few days ago, not a single regen, 11+ cure IIIs. Hard work) because so many are either flat out disinterested or worse, will actively take offence at anything. I see it as being easier to just carry the load myself. If someone asks and wants advice, I'll merrily help where I can though and I'm certainly not alone here.

TLDR, pushing the blame for this divide on the 'raiders' isn't really fair, it's everyone's fault as a whole.

[KaivaC]

26 pages? Wow. I dunno what all had been discussed since I removed all references to Kaiva, and frankly, that’s not the reason I came back for a moment. Look, quite simply, the title was supposed to include question marks – I dunno how the hell I forgot to include them. Again, I apologize for all this drama that I have caused – maybe you guys delved into something else, but ultimately, it was my thread that created the space for whatever the conflict currently is. It is my fault, and I wholly apologize to the FF community. As I’ve said before, I’ve made some changes so that a lot of you guys won’t have to get involved with issues that I inadvertently caused by a bad posting, and I have made changes so that you won’t have to worry about dealing with me in-game either. Whether you accept my apology or not, there it is. Sorry for starting this thread.

*bows head in apology*

[ShadowHunterrX]

snip

*bows head in apology*

Dont be so dramatic.... sometimes you need to kick the bucket to move forward. Even it isnt in a good way.

Why drama because people have a argument ? I rather see people fight it out with different opinions ( sadly some with personal attacks ) then people only agree with each other and creating a big echo chamber. Which is even more useless.

[KaivaC]

Because simply, I feel like I have been associated with saying the title of this thread – which was definitely not my attempt, and my attempts to defend what I wanted to convey made it seem more like a toxic elitist. I wouldn’t call my actions being dramatic, I just did what I felt was right – hence why I’m going through such pains to delete/hide myself. I don’t want nobody with bad feelings affecting me outside of an argument in this thread. Didn’t intend for this to turn into a now-27 page debate, and because of this drawn out fight, I feel quite guilty about it because I failed to communicate my thoughts properly. Those side arguments, nothing I can really do about that – but taking the blame for this elitist post and removing myself from social circles is the least I can do for causing all this drama in the first place.

Say what you will about me, but at the very least, I am acknowledging that I am totally in the wrong and hopefully, the situation in my original post has been rectified. Hopefully. If not…well, there’s not much else I can do.