Stop spamming Medica I & II/diurnal Aspected Helios

[KDSilver]

No I think savage is crap because its crap

Having a straight opinion on something you've never actually done make it be a poor argument.

[HyoMinPark]

Your maths are wrong, all of them.

That’s really funny that you’re quoting the person who has been proven wrong with logs and actual data (not “napkin math”), and are trying to say that others are wrong. What you also fail to realize is that Maeka moved the goalposts in regards to the total amount of time that is lost, starting with 10 seconds and finally moving to 30~60 seconds to 30 seconds per healer to 15~45 seconds in her last reply to Bourne_Endeavor. I do appreciate you highlighting that inconsistency though.

I can claim for sure I never mentioned doing nothing else myself, I clearly stated several times that I do everything else on top of it so that clearly isn't me.

So “everything else” on top of overhealing? We are aware that you said you heal over regens, and that you think that’s fine. Others are saying, no, it’s really not okay. It is a waste. I already provided you with scenarios, but I shall requote them for you:

It doesn't disappear [regen ticks], but it's worthless. Someone who doesn't take damage in the 30 seconds your HoTs are ticking on them doesn't need healing.

Say you have a DPS with 41,000 HP. They take zero damage when you cast Diurnal Aspected Helios and for the entire duration of the Regen applied. Each tick it gives you (we'll say each tick is 3,500 HP healed to give a value) is wasted. HoT ticks occur every 3 seconds, so that is 10 ticks wasted; 10 ticks that did 0 HEALING; 10 ticks that OVERHEALED for a 100% overheal value. Not to mention the burst heal from Aspected Helios' initial hit was also wasted because it healed 0 HP.

People at 100% don't need to be healed. In other words, your HoTs are worthless on them, and a waste of MP, a waste of a cast. There is no way around that or around them not being a waste.


Compare these two scenarios:

Say your party takes about 12,000 damage from a raid wide AOE. You use Diurnal Aspected Helios, and the initial burst heal hits for 10,000, with the regens ticking for 3,500 on everage. The majority of the ticks will be overheals, and it would have been more prudent to just heal with regular Helios in this instant, or used Collective Unconscious' HoT it gives, as it's a shorter duration and less Regen ticks will be overheals.

Now say that your party takes about 25,000 damage from a raid wide AOE. You use Diurnal Aspected Helios, and the initial burst heal hits for 10,000, with the regens ticking for 3,500 on average. A few of the ticks will be overheals, but the vast majority will not be. THIS is proper use of your HoTs.

[Sebazy]

Bypassing mechanics "isn't" e v e r y t h i n g

Zurvan and Cruise Chaser (amongst others) would like a word with you

[KDSilver]

Zurvan and Cruise Chaser (amongst others) would like a word with you

"Skip soar or disband"

The "good" old days.

[Maeka]

I love how you just disregard about what I said about the varying times.

I wasn't moving the goal posts, I was re-calculating when others threw different numbers at me, get it right.

The "10 seconds" was just an example; the 15-45 came out of the napkin math. 30 falls within 15-45.

Not understanding why that's so hard to understand.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

@BourneEndeavor: I said "spot on" in comparison to the total time.

If someone said "It's about 2 gallons of fuel to get from A to B" and someone else goes "No, you're wrong, it's 3 gallons of fuel." and the first person goes "I was close!"...

Except you were wrong by double your highest estimation. Using your own example, that would be someone saying "No, you're wrong, it's 5 gallons of fuel." That isn't close anymore, it's just wrong.

As far as it being "Ever Changing", I was changing it to account for different numbers thrown around "It's 2k. No, sometimes it's 2.5k. DPS can do upwards of 6k!" etc etc.

No, you're moving the goal posts. Jumping from 10 seconds to 45 is a quantum leap. I did yet another run where this time we kept our DPS at 1k. It still worked out to a longer run, and we contributed half as much effort as everyone else.

[HyoMinPark]

I love how you just disregard about what I said about the varying times.

I wasn't moving the goal posts, I was re-calculating when others threw different numbers at me, get it right.

The "10 seconds" was just an example; the 15-45 came out of the napkin math. 30 falls within 15-45.

Not understanding why that's so hard to understand.

I also love how you chose to blatantly ignore this—and taking the 30 seconds (is that the value you are choosing to stick with now? Note that it coincides with the averages that were given you by myself), you were proven wrong again, because the run took 80 seconds—more than double. And still more if you decide to change this back to “30 seconds per healer”; and the run had better DPS than the first run.

Your “examples” are all wrong. Use actual data next time, not napkin math.

overheal properly

There is no “proper” way to overheal. Some amount of overheal is unavoidable because mistimings happen. But blatantly overhealing on top of regens already present, or spamming Medica II/Diurnal Aspected Helios (or spamming Medica/Helios/Cure III) when people do not need to be healed is a bad habit and should be avoided. People do not need to be at 100% health all the time unless there is a mechanic that requires such. Which none are present in the content you do.

[KDSilver]

Does it really matter to know what time it make the group earn? Dps contribution is dps contribution. Low or high values, that's still something in the ending results and will still be better than nothing.
Even if overall, healers are capable of contributing a lot more that what people can think.

[Maeka]

There's also something to be said for anecdotal evidence, but whatever.

At the end of the day we're still talking about normal 8mans and I've been saying all along I've been talking about 8mans in duty finder, perhaps I should have specified normals?

Whatever.

Point still stands, is a mildly over-healing healer is not going to wreck a run. 10 seconds, 45 seconds, 60 seconds, 80 seconds, 160 seconds, don't really care either way. It's not going to break the run. It's just not a big enough deal for people to get their panties up in a bunch over.

Sorry, it really isn't.

And I've said several times in this thread, that I never advocated healers standing around doing nothing but healing for zero all the time. But you know, people and their love of slippery slope fallacy. "If you OK some overhealing, then they're get into a bad habit and do nothing BUT overheal!"

EDIT: What really bothers me about this, are all the savage raiders thinking that they have some kind of right to talk down to people, especially those who have no intention of ever stepping into a savage raid like they're somehow better people.

I really hate that kind of entitlement and puffed ego, you know? It is really off-putting and I tend to react badly to it.

Yeah so you do savage raiding and crap. I'm supposed to be impressed by that? At the end of the day, you're another person sitting in front of a computer, same as me.

[HyoMinPark]

There's also something to be said for anecdotal evidence, but whatever.

At the end of the day we're still talking about normal 8mans and I've been saying all along I've been talking about 8mans in duty finder, perhaps I should have specified normals?

Whatever.

It can’t be anecdotal if there are logs and numerical data to back it up. To insinuate that those are anecdotes is incorrect. And we are discussing 8-man normal modes. I’m not even sure what you’re trying to say there, because we are discussing the content you specified—the examples given to you by Bourne were from Normal Mode Sigmascape...which you are referring to right now.

If you want the logs, feel free to message me on Discord. I have no qualms sending them to you there.

Point still stands, is a mildly over-healing healer is not going to wreck a run. 10 seconds, 45 seconds, 60 seconds, 80 seconds, 160 seconds, don't really care either way. It's not going to break the run. It's just not a big enough deal for people to get their panties up in a bunch over.

Sorry, it really isn't.

That doesn’t change that it develops bad habits, and bad habits should not be a thing. Also, if you didn’t care or if it didn’t really matter to you, then why are you still in this thread? You wouldn’t be here if you didn’t care.

And I've said several times in this thread, that I never advocated healers standing around doing nothing but healing for zero all the time. But you know, people and their love of slippery slope fallacy. "If you OK some overhealing, then they're get into a bad habit and do nothing BUT overheal!"

This thread wasn’t even about healer DPS. You brought that in here.

EDIT: What really bothers me about this, are all the savage raiders thinking that they have some kind of right to talk down to people, especially those who have no intention of ever stepping into a savage raid like they're somehow better people.

I really hate that kind of entitlement and puffed ego, you know? It is really off-putting and I tend to react badly to it.

Yeah so you do savage raiding and crap. I'm supposed to be impressed by that? At the end of the day, you're another person sitting in front of a computer, same as me.

I don’t care if you’re impressed or not impressed by my Savage achievements, nor am I here bragging about them. What you think of me doesn’t matter to me. I just take issue with people who try to talk numbers, but don’t actually use the tools that show them, and then act like they know what they’re talking about via napkin math. Just as I take issue with people passing about bad advice—like saying it’s okay to overheal over regens or run Double Diurnal AST.

I also dislike people who resort to veiled ad hominem when they lose an argument.