Stop spamming Medica I & II/diurnal Aspected Helios

[Maeka]

That is incorrect.

Before saying "Nah-uh", it is usually customary to provide actual data.


If, for example, a healer can put out 2,000 DPS as you say...

What does a real DPS do? At least 4,000? Probably more than that. But let's say 4,000 because I don't do the whole parsing thing myself.

If the two tanks can at least match 1 DPS (they probably do more than that), then you've got 4x4000 and 1x4000 DPS.

That's 20,000 DPS not counting the healers.

If...

1 Healer was "Good" and the other healer was doing zero, or both healers are average and doing half: it's 20,000 -> 22,000
Both healers were awesome then it's 24,000.

Now, let's say that you have a boss that takes 10 minutes to kill and let's say that 2 minutes total of the fight is spent dodging AoE, so 8 minutes for (insert boss here), if everybody is at their absolute best, at 24,000 DPS.

This boss would have about ~11.5 million HP roughly.

Now, let's replace the two healers with two healers who do zero DPS:

You get 9.6 minutes of actual DPS time, which makes the entire fight 11.6 minutes (because of the two minutes dodging crap/scripted events/what-not).

The average between those two would be 10.6 or thereabouts.

So you're adding a whopping 30 seconds onto the fight if you were to replace the two awesome healers with two average healers doing half of the DPS.

A whopping..... 30........seconds........ on a DF fight that you are almost guaranteed to win anyways.

[HyoMinPark]

snip

Said data has been repeated in a myriad of threads past. And is also present on a certain website, and can be seen with certain tools. It’s also common knowledge that if you remove 4,000 DPS blatantly from a fight, it’s going to take longer because now the other party members have to make up the difference to even meet the same kill time as if the 4,000 DPS was still present. To say that it is insignificant “in the grand scheme of things” is wrong. I don’t need to provide data to make that statement, as it’s common sense.

Inb4 contests about the word “insignificant”—to say that something is insignificant implies it doesn’t matter. Healer DPS does matter in terms of kill time and the efficiency of a party. You have two good healers that are DPSing, you are going to clear faster than if you have two healers that just don’t DPS at all.

What does a “real” DPS do? Upwards of 6,000 DPS if they’re really good (some have even broken 8,000 albeit with padding involved), but 5,000~5,500 is probably a better average when you consider each job—obviously some are far higher than others (75th percentile for Demon Chadarnook has the highest DPS job [SAM] at ~6,300 with the lowest DPS job [RDM] at ~5,600). Tanks can range from anywhere between 3,500 to 4,000 individually, or even higher if they’re really good—75th percentile has them between 4,100 and 4,500 on Chadarnook. Same with healers: they can range from as low as 1,500 to almost 2,800 individually (Chadarnook 75th percentile has them between 2,000 and 2,500). You saying you don’t parse doesn’t really add any credibility to your statements in this post, no offense. Because you don’t see the numbers that people who parse do, so how can you judge on their significance?



In normal content, healer DPS doesn’t matter to the extent it does in Savage or Extremes. But that 30 seconds you’re quoting can mean the difference between hitting enrage and clearing. Even in Ex trials it can mean that, as Extremes typically have enrage timers. Even some 24-man and 8-man normal mode raids bosses have enrages, albeit far more lenient to the point where DPS doesn’t matter. If DPS mattered, people would never clear the current 24-man—it’s basically a war of attrition where you continue to through corpses at the boss until he dies.

Regardless, what you’re talking about has nothing to do with this thread, which is about overhealing, not healer DPS and how important it is. If you want to start an “The Importance of Healer DPS” thread, make one. That horse has been beat enough though. You ignored the entirety of my post to focus on the “healer DPS” aspect of it.

[Remus]

What dps does 4k? If they are doing 4k then they are garbage tier. Just go check fflogs to see how much dps should be doing around blue/purple percentile. At best they should be going 5k+, on 24 man I can do close to 7k on SAM on the first boss in there and that wasn't even card feeding and doing 6k on phantom train and close to 7k on Demon Chadarnook and 6k on god kefka (which personally I think I could do better but oh well).

[kikix12]

What does a real DPS do? At least 4,000? Probably more than that. But let's say 4,000 because I don't do the whole parsing thing myself.

Alright then. Using that "data" as the base, let's party in some 8-man. I'll come as a DPS and won't do anything at all, just stand there (or lie on the floor). 4000 damage is insignificant, so you won't mind me not giving my 4000 right?! It's insignificant, you can do it without me. It'll save me the pain of giving even the most basic effort that's required to check a HP bar and use skills based on that (boss HP bar which in DPS's case is "If higher than zero = Attack".

Not wasting time on AoE heals when the party is at full (sans the tank that is single-target healed) is that very basic effort. Healers, too, have simple principles that can be VERY easily worked with for a clear increase in ones abilities. And avoiding overheal by not healing someone near full HP is one of those simple principles. Letting healing over time do the healing when someone is not in danger of dying is another one. This is the fundamental part of healing that requires close to zero skills to do. And the person following these fundamental parts loses absolutely nothing from doing that.

Saying that they shouldn't try to follow those simple principles simply because their inefficient healing leads to nothing but some dozens of seconds saved is absurd. Would you be fine with a DPS not doing anything or just spamming a single skill, if you're lucky a single combo, for that same reason?! No?! Double standards. And if you allow that, what happens when everyone follows that logic?! These few dozens of seconds turn into many minutes.

I say that as someone that had the experience of doing a single dungeon run for as long as it would take me to do TWO runs with an AVERAGE group of randoms.

There is no excuse to not follow the most fundamental aspects to the class (using AoE on large pulls as a DPS, not healing full-HP targets as healers, not using the enmity combo when fair deal ahead in enmity).

I'm not going to say that everyone needs to be a savage-level player. I'm not, nor do I really have much interest in savage personally. But there are parts where there must be a limit to how "for fun" a player can be before they change from "casual" to a "caustic".

[LadyKairi]

Snip

While you don’t experience spammy healers, that’s not the case for some of us. 98% of the runs I do have spammy healers, which is especially frustrating for me being on a healer. “If one healer is overhealing, the other can do more dps?” That’s garbage. It’s team content. TEAM. Both healers should be working together to cooperate their heals for dps uptime. I don’t roll healer to be a glorified dps while the other healer gets all the fun for the sake of “saving overheals”.

In regards to the healer dps, it’s not as insignificant as you think. When I get savage clears on my alt (where I’m the only healer trying to dps and heal) and compare them to when I clear with my static on my main, it’s night and day. On my main, I find myself thinking “holy crap! We’re done already???” You can tell the different, especially when both healers are doing good damage.

[Ruf]

That makes two of us. Very nice ad hominem, by the way.

MOZZYSTAR and I may be on the same server, but that's not the reason I am telling you that you are wrong. I'm telling you that you're wrong because you are. I have far more experience on AST than you do.

But continue to play AST incorrectly. I could not care less. You choose not to listen, and there is nothing I can do about that.



It doesn't disappear, but it's worthless. Someone who doesn't take damage in the 30 seconds your HoTs are ticking on them doesn't need healing.

Say you have a DPS with 41,000 HP. They take zero damage when you cast Diurnal Aspected Helios and for the entire duration of the Regen applied. Each tick it gives you (we'll say each tick is 3,500 HP healed to give a value) is wasted. HoT ticks occur every 3 seconds, so that is 10 ticks wasted; 10 ticks that did 0 HEALING; 10 ticks that OVERHEALED for a 100% overheal value. Not to mention the burst heal from Aspected Helios' initial hit was also wasted because it healed 0 HP.

You are speaking in term of when 0 heal is needed because we waiting on mechanic & I speak about all the other time, you are purposely making me look bad with your comment when truthfully if theres a longer timer than my 30sec aspected helios where ppl wont get hurt I wont apply it even tho I'm full mp & tbh yes I might near the end so when battle restart we all have it already & I'm ready to nuke.You claim you know better Hyo but your comments tell me you dont, while I dont do savages often, with a few attempts I would be willing to put my hand in a gob campfire to display that theres a possibility that I end up getting the mechanics better than you do so dont tell me you are better because that might be proven false

Then stop arguing about it super ego? If I’m not changing your mind, really don’t care to change your mind by this point I know you are bad sooo I’m just enjoying the fun of making you mad.

Ps. You say the way I talk to you, have you looked at how you talk to others? You deserve it super ego. Treat others better and they will treat you better. Until then i’ll Have fun making fun of you.

Do not call me super ego please?

Their reasoning behind it is so that if one healer dies, there will still be a regen healer available to heal people... which is a strange way of playing. As is their explanation for keeping everyone at 100%, 100% of the time, because they expect everyone to fail mechanics and """"purposely"""" take damage.

I dunno about you, but it seems like their playstyle is a result from maybe one too many bad raid encounters. Or maybe their bad experiences is a result of the bad playstyle? Probably.

It's a curious thing as to how they're managing to keep their MP so "flawless" though, even in Extreme, MP for AST can be pretty tough if even one raise needs to be thrown out. Perhaps they're just doing barely any DPS which makes up for the mana wasted on overheals?

All the above are correct & yes I did get bad encounters as the result of bad playstyles, I had to start somewhere too in this game~ But I will tell you this , Out of many bad encounters & my own bad play, bad encounters is in majority.For whoever try to go for the mentor mount & have done 1000/2000 roulette the amount of bad "playstyles" as you claim is ridiculous, that's literally all you do is to carry ppl throught content, I can not even claim how many groups I leave because helping them is in vain, thanksfully (while I preferred the old system), they added job roles for abilitys because back then it somewhat was as bad if not worst too.

No, I don't have the read the thread, I'm just more sad that it's yet more bickering between players over something that's generally not an issue. I've tanked quite a few dungeons and I've not seen these heal-spammy healers much, and in 8mans, my co-healers aren't typically this kind.



The OP (and others) are making it sound like you see them in every other random DF run and I simply don't find that's the case.



The OT usually puts up their DPS stance which kinda makes them a half-DPS and yes you got Warriors as you said. But yeah that was a minor math error, but not Entirely incorrect. You could say that the two tanks are probably equivalent to one DPS, so okay fine, you got 5 DPS in an 8-man group.



But yet still insignificant as to the actual kill speed of the entire battle, if you were to cut it in half, or remove it entirely.



Sometimes, sometimes not. If one healer is overhealing, the other can do more DPS? *shrug*

And yes, I said earlier in the thread, that I am not talking about egregious cases, but the OP and some others in the thread seem to take this tone that ANY overhealing at all is bad.

Dunno about AST and SCH, but WHM can throw out heals until the cows come home, between Assize and Lucid, you'd pretty much have to be casting Medicas on cooldown to actually run out of MP (and use absolutely none of your cooldowns, free buttons, or do anything else that costs less MP).

I've literally gotten killed in, say, Castrum Fluminis, get up, throw Lucid and Assize and lay into several Medicas because of people actually getting hit with junk, and about 30 seconds later I'm standing there with half or more MP.

Maeka claims also stand true,

[MaloraYuki]

Do not call me super ego please?

Show other people respect then. Before people started telling you off all you did was tell others they were bad healers when really your comments make you seem like the worst healer here. Your comments have shown you to be self-centered and arrogant. No one made you into an a$$ you did that yourself. That’s why I called you super ego don’t be so arrogant and people might take what you say as actual discussion.

[Ruf]

And you’re still wrong.

Now I am telling you: You are wrong.

[MaloraYuki]

Now I am telling you: You are wrong.

Whatever you say super ego

[Ruf]

What dps does 4k? If they are doing 4k then they are garbage tier. Just go check fflogs to see how much dps should be doing around blue/purple percentile. At best they should be going 5k+, on 24 man I can do close to 7k on SAM on the first boss in there and that wasn't even card feeding and doing 6k on phantom train and close to 7k on Demon Chadarnook and 6k on god kefka (which personally I think I could do better but oh well).

Quite sure that was just an example with numbers & not actual parsing... try again