Stop spamming Medica I & II/diurnal Aspected Helios

[HyoMinPark]

But yet still insignificant as to the actual kill speed of the entire battle, if you were to cut it in half, or remove it entirely.

That is incorrect.

Sometimes, sometimes not. If one healer is overhealing, the other can do more DPS? *shrug*

The overhealing healer typically overheals and negates any healing their co-healer does. There is a reason I do not roll Regen healers, because my co-healers tend to effectively negate my HoTs with their own heal spam. At that point, they are not only wasting their own MP, but mine as well.

And yes, I said earlier in the thread, that I am not talking about egregious cases, but the OP and some others in the thread seem to take this tone that ANY overhealing at all is bad.

Blatant and repeated/intentional overhealing is bad; it's wasteful and should be avoided. Which this thread is about repeated/blatant overhealing (Medica II spam when no one is taking damage), and one poster's posts are about intentional overhealing (keeping people at 100% HP 100% of the time, and healing on top of regens without letting them do the work they're intended to do). Please read the thread before you jump into it next time.

[Maeka]

That is incorrect.

Before saying "Nah-uh", it is usually customary to provide actual data.


If, for example, a healer can put out 2,000 DPS as you say...

What does a real DPS do? At least 4,000? Probably more than that. But let's say 4,000 because I don't do the whole parsing thing myself.

If the two tanks can at least match 1 DPS (they probably do more than that), then you've got 4x4000 and 1x4000 DPS.

That's 20,000 DPS not counting the healers.

If...

1 Healer was "Good" and the other healer was doing zero, or both healers are average and doing half: it's 20,000 -> 22,000
Both healers were awesome then it's 24,000.

Now, let's say that you have a boss that takes 10 minutes to kill and let's say that 2 minutes total of the fight is spent dodging AoE, so 8 minutes for (insert boss here), if everybody is at their absolute best, at 24,000 DPS.

This boss would have about ~11.5 million HP roughly.

Now, let's replace the two healers with two healers who do zero DPS:

You get 9.6 minutes of actual DPS time, which makes the entire fight 11.6 minutes (because of the two minutes dodging crap/scripted events/what-not).

The average between those two would be 10.6 or thereabouts.

So you're adding a whopping 30 seconds onto the fight if you were to replace the two awesome healers with two average healers doing half of the DPS.

A whopping..... 30........seconds........ on a DF fight that you are almost guaranteed to win anyways.

[HyoMinPark]

snip

Said data has been repeated in a myriad of threads past. And is also present on a certain website, and can be seen with certain tools. It’s also common knowledge that if you remove 4,000 DPS blatantly from a fight, it’s going to take longer because now the other party members have to make up the difference to even meet the same kill time as if the 4,000 DPS was still present. To say that it is insignificant “in the grand scheme of things” is wrong. I don’t need to provide data to make that statement, as it’s common sense.

Inb4 contests about the word “insignificant”—to say that something is insignificant implies it doesn’t matter. Healer DPS does matter in terms of kill time and the efficiency of a party. You have two good healers that are DPSing, you are going to clear faster than if you have two healers that just don’t DPS at all.

What does a “real” DPS do? Upwards of 6,000 DPS if they’re really good (some have even broken 8,000 albeit with padding involved), but 5,000~5,500 is probably a better average when you consider each job—obviously some are far higher than others (75th percentile for Demon Chadarnook has the highest DPS job [SAM] at ~6,300 with the lowest DPS job [RDM] at ~5,600). Tanks can range from anywhere between 3,500 to 4,000 individually, or even higher if they’re really good—75th percentile has them between 4,100 and 4,500 on Chadarnook. Same with healers: they can range from as low as 1,500 to almost 2,800 individually (Chadarnook 75th percentile has them between 2,000 and 2,500). You saying you don’t parse doesn’t really add any credibility to your statements in this post, no offense. Because you don’t see the numbers that people who parse do, so how can you judge on their significance?



In normal content, healer DPS doesn’t matter to the extent it does in Savage or Extremes. But that 30 seconds you’re quoting can mean the difference between hitting enrage and clearing. Even in Ex trials it can mean that, as Extremes typically have enrage timers. Even some 24-man and 8-man normal mode raids bosses have enrages, albeit far more lenient to the point where DPS doesn’t matter. If DPS mattered, people would never clear the current 24-man—it’s basically a war of attrition where you continue to through corpses at the boss until he dies.

Regardless, what you’re talking about has nothing to do with this thread, which is about overhealing, not healer DPS and how important it is. If you want to start an “The Importance of Healer DPS” thread, make one. That horse has been beat enough though. You ignored the entirety of my post to focus on the “healer DPS” aspect of it.

[kikix12]

What does a real DPS do? At least 4,000? Probably more than that. But let's say 4,000 because I don't do the whole parsing thing myself.

Alright then. Using that "data" as the base, let's party in some 8-man. I'll come as a DPS and won't do anything at all, just stand there (or lie on the floor). 4000 damage is insignificant, so you won't mind me not giving my 4000 right?! It's insignificant, you can do it without me. It'll save me the pain of giving even the most basic effort that's required to check a HP bar and use skills based on that (boss HP bar which in DPS's case is "If higher than zero = Attack".

Not wasting time on AoE heals when the party is at full (sans the tank that is single-target healed) is that very basic effort. Healers, too, have simple principles that can be VERY easily worked with for a clear increase in ones abilities. And avoiding overheal by not healing someone near full HP is one of those simple principles. Letting healing over time do the healing when someone is not in danger of dying is another one. This is the fundamental part of healing that requires close to zero skills to do. And the person following these fundamental parts loses absolutely nothing from doing that.

Saying that they shouldn't try to follow those simple principles simply because their inefficient healing leads to nothing but some dozens of seconds saved is absurd. Would you be fine with a DPS not doing anything or just spamming a single skill, if you're lucky a single combo, for that same reason?! No?! Double standards. And if you allow that, what happens when everyone follows that logic?! These few dozens of seconds turn into many minutes.

I say that as someone that had the experience of doing a single dungeon run for as long as it would take me to do TWO runs with an AVERAGE group of randoms.

There is no excuse to not follow the most fundamental aspects to the class (using AoE on large pulls as a DPS, not healing full-HP targets as healers, not using the enmity combo when fair deal ahead in enmity).

I'm not going to say that everyone needs to be a savage-level player. I'm not, nor do I really have much interest in savage personally. But there are parts where there must be a limit to how "for fun" a player can be before they change from "casual" to a "caustic".