Idea for a New Expansion: Gaius van Baelsar lives... and he needs your help

[Rocl]

In retrospect we should've been even more suspicious of Asahi since the Populares are the faction that supported Varis' uncle for the throne. Anyways, that isn't the point of my post and it's not like we needed anything more to solidify Asahi as an unhinged Elidibus plaything.

I don't think Gaius would necessarily be on the Populares side of things, tbh. It'd be another departure from the man we've known since 1.X~2.0; I feel. Someone more versed in van Baelsar's mindset cough feel free to correct me, but he's a big fan of might makes right and all gods are evil, forever. Granted he's learned Gods with a capital G function well beyond what eikons do, so there's a sliver of a chance for change.

Gaius has lost everything, and he was already in a desperate state in A Realm Reborn and the lost years of FFXIV. It makes perfect sense that this depression would've made him vulnerable to Ascian machinations and manipulations in much the same way Thancred was--I always thought of it as two different outcomes of the same general emotion. Thancred struggled to fill Louisoix's emptiness and Gaius struggled to restore the Emperor's faith in him...

Anyways, the Populares, I think if I'm remembering right, are anti-expansionist and don't particularly care about the Solus' mandate to eradicate eikons. Gaius (before 4.3, obviously) felt quite in line with the normal Garlean line of thinking.

Believe thyself. Believe they strength.
Know thyself. Know thy weakness.
Thou art alone. One amongst many.
The land is alone. One star in the void.
See through the lies. See beyond the words of deceivers.
Follow the truth. Follow the whispers of verity.
Protect that which must be. Destroy that which must not.
For Calamity draws nigh. The End is upon thee!

This Imperial speech, given by a XIVth Legion Centurion to a group of children apparently had an immediate effect of "oh, yes, we must kill the tribes and their gods before the Land 'doth perish."

Always weirded me out, that scene in Futures Perfect--how did the Centurion so perfectly brainwash a gaggle of children so quickly? Oh well, impressionable youth I guess.

Anyhow, Gaius' words in Praetorium definitely FEEL like he still believed in the Empire's original mission, just that they were doing the world a disservice but not heeding his call to arms to get Eorzea annexed properly. Now would be a proper time to change, however, given everything he's gone through in recent [indeterminate amount of time specified]. Eorzea is still plagued with faith feeding false gods, and I definitely feel like nothing has changed regarding Eorzea's leadership since Operation Archon that'd make him change his mind.

If nothing else perhaps we'll finally get those answers about the Battle of Silvertear Skies we always wanted and that promised lore on Sabik...

[Enkidoh]

On the other hand, Varis is literally conspiring with the Word of the Father.

Is he really though? At first I thought he was, but now after re-watching the final 'stinger' scene for 4.0's original story (the one with Varis and Elidibus), Varis certainly didn't seem amiable that Elidibus was there - he even called Elidibus out on just what the whole Rejoining shtick really means for mortals like Varis, and Elidibus didn't even answer, only deflecting the question with a "Question my motives if you must" (he may as well have said "Oh, you will all die regardless, but it's all for the greater good of our vague dark god being reborn, sorry."). And the point was hammered home when Elidibus took off his mask and showed Varis the identity of his host, resulting in a shocked "How dare you?!" from Varis (the first time I've actually seen genuine fear and anger on that guy's face.).

Now this is just my interpretation but it seems whoever Elidibus is using as his meatsuit is someone Varis at least knows, if not cares for, thus in that case Elidibus would effectively be holding this person hostage, as a means of keeping Varis (and by extension, the whole Garlean Empire) compliant. It certainly throws the whole relationship between the Ascians and the Empire into confusion in any event - Varius certainly doesn't seem particularly pleased or willing to co-operate with Elidibus.

Accordingly, I am loathe to admit it, but I am starting to now come around more to the idea that we may indeed be allying with Garlemald in the future - or at least, certain aspects of it (yes, the Eighth Calamity is upon us, Enkidoh Roux actually allying with the Garleans???!!" Inconceivable! ) - but that stinger at the end of 4.0 and of course, recent revelations in 4.3 have made me start to see that idea in a new light.

[Cilia]

From what I can gather, Varis is allowing Elidibus (as Zenos) to do as he pleases for the moment. This is, most likely, part of a "wait and see" strategy - if he agrees with Elidibus' goals and methods he will actively conspire with him, while if he rejects them he will simply tell Elidibus to take a hike. "Keep you enemies close" and all.

Now, as I've said before I'm not averse to the idea of allying with more moderate Garleans. My distaste is for the Empire, not Garleans as a people; with a more benevolent and open-minded leader at the helm, a lot of good could be done for a lot of people. Varis has not shown either of these qualities. And I've yet to see an argument in support of the Empire that doesn't have some kind of fallacy built into it...

Will that leader end up being (the heavily-implied-to-be-alive as the Shadowhunter) Gaius? Perhaps. Perhaps not. It depends on whether or not he learned that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. The people we really need to support are the Populares, and it remains unknown if Gaius ascribes to their ideals. (He could still believe Eorzea would be better off under the Empire's heel; that would most likely be a deal breaker with both the protagonists and the Populares of Garlemald.)

[Anonymoose]

Varis is literally conspiring with the Word of the Father.

Is he really though?

This is, most likely, part of a "wait and see" strategy

In that 4.0 stinger, Elidibus calls the loss of Zenos the loss of "an invaluable test subject". Imho, in any world where Varis wasn't well-apprised of what his son was up to, the only reply for that is, "...wat?" I'm not arguing that Varis likes Elidibus by any stretch, but every time the Man in White utters, "We both want to save the star, don't we?" Varis apparently just cedes the floor.

"Why would I work with Ascians?" "Kill the others if you want, I just want to save the star!" "Ok."
"You're possessing my son's corpse!?" "Don't you want to undermine the Populares? I just want to save the star!" "Ok."
"I said no primals." "There's no primal now, eh? I just want to save the star!" "Ok."

Even if he's conspiring now to stay close and do something about it later, I would still consider him an active conspirator at this point. I would have considered him an active conspirator only knowing what in the Seventh Hell Elidibus meant by "You sacrificed your son on the laboratory table for this."

(I doubt he's going to like working with him any better when he realizes he's probably just trying to set up a balanced war whereby someone will be desperate enough to throw around Calamity-level power. Assuming he's back to Calamity plans and not New God plans, at any rate. Not sure which is in vogue for him at the moment.)

[Mieck]

I don't think Gaius would necessarily be on the Populares side of things, tbh. It'd be another departure from the man we've known since 1.X~2.0; I feel. Someone more versed in van Baelsar's mindset cough feel free to correct me, but he's a big fan of might makes right and all gods are evil, forever. Granted he's learned Gods with a capital G function well beyond what eikons do, so there's a sliver of a chance for change.

Yeah, in retrospect, I think that was a bad suggestion on my part. I do think, however, there will be a divergence between what he used to believe and what he now believes. It could be that he no longer picks a side, or that he might see both as being as bad as each other. I know, all we've heard about the Populares so far makes them sound better than the other side, but we have no first hand (other than the few lines with Maxima - Asahi doesn't count, he was lying, to us, to Hien, to Maxima).


And thanks for the reminder about the brainwashing scene in 1.x. I'd forgotten about that. It ties in nicely with the Crania Lupi and it's sole remaining member, Fordola

[Cilia]

Even if [Varis is] conspiring now to stay close and do something about it later, I would still consider him an active conspirator at this point. I would have considered him an active conspirator only knowing what in the Seventh Hell Elidibus meant by "You sacrificed your son on the laboratory table for this."[/SIZE]

I agree that Varis is part of whatever Elidibus has going, but whether or not he's an active conspirator is... debatable. Elidibus doesn't seem to be keeping him apprised of everything that's going on, such as Tsukuyomi. Trusting an Ascian is a boneheaded move, and I agree that Varis seems to be enabling Elidibus' plans (be it through setting Zenos up in Ala Mhigo or allowing Elidibus-as-Zenos to do whatever he pleases with the Empire's resources), but he doesn't seem to be aware of what Elidibus' endgame is beyond the usual "saving the planet" shtick. As long as he's in the dark as to what Eli's plans fully entail, I don't think it's really fair to say Varis is actively conspiring to have those plans come to fruition. He's enabling, to be sure, but...

(I'm defending Varis? Who'da thought?)

[Anonymoose]

If I grant you that he's not necessarily an accomplice, I must insist that he's at least an accessory.

[Cilia]

Without the Empire's resources Eli's (current) plans couldn't succeed; by giving him free (and seemingly unsupervised) access to those resources, yes, that makes Varis an accessory to whatever he's up to.

He's still responsible for whatever happens, just indirectly.

[Theodric]

We need to remember that Varis has essentially been isolated. Regula, his best friend, was slain at the hands of Zurvan. I'm not entirely convinced that Elidibus' scheming didn't have something to do with that. We know that Regula cleaned up the 6th Legion by rooting out the corruption that existed within it. We also know that some of his own men were traitors and seeking to sabotage his efforts. It reeks of the same sort of scheme that almost led to Maxima being killed. In fact, it gets even more suspicious when you consider that the same 'child' that Regula died to save is pretty much explicitly there to do Elidibus' bidding. Now, if Elidibus wanted to get close to Varis what would be a major obstacle for him? We know that Varis isn't fully on board with Elidibus' antics - he expresses concern for the future of his people and homeland, after all. If he had someone like Regula at his side, then, would Elidibus' manipulation be as effective? I suspect not.

Furthermore, Varis appears to be not be nearly so stoic as he presents himself to be. He seems to hesitate when discussing Zenos. Granted, he brands him a monster but Elidibus presses him on the subject of a father outliving his son which results in Varis looking rather conflicted. There's no voice acting in the scene but there is a telling '...' before his responses, signalling some manner of torment. Then there's the fact that Elidibus announces that he has something that will 'comfort' Varis. He reacts with shock but now that we know that he took on the face of Zenos...

...well, I won't be surprised if Varis' tale is a tragic one.

As for Gaius? Well, I hope he doesn't change too drastically. Bringing him back only to have him effectively be a completely different character wouldn't sit well with me. I'm also hoping that his appearance doesn't overshadow Maxima.

[Remedi]

If I grant you that he's not necessarily an accomplice, I must insist that he's at least an accessory.

At this point I'd say he is just a puppet and he's getting to know it.