Selfish DPS Balance

[Rayo]

This threshold is RNG doe which is pretty bad, the whole card system based on RNG is just bad.




If there's a BRD or a MCH in your group, which is the case in any meta composition, DRG is actually better than NIN, so the answer is pretty obvious.



Making plans around an RNG buffs that most of the time is gonna be an AOE card anyway, yes.


???


You need to understand that as long as there is gonna be utility buffs, any selfish DPS is gonna suffer from not having some.
Your solution would either :
-Not make SAM strong enough while not giving it any advantage in a non meta comp (oh ye you gotta realize that a good grp with a meta comp and a bad grp with a meta comp are 2 distinct things, also, selfish DPSs really rise in low to medium skill groups)
-Or, it'd be so strong that it'd just take another job's place which would simply create another issue.

so your answer to the example question of what to pair a job in a vacuum (as in no outside or alternative influences outside of the theoretical statement as to say that so-and-so is better) is to say people should bow to the meta. I never asked for whats best, I asked for whats better.

Instead you of saying something like "NIN and BRD" or whatever, you say that DRG is better than NIN totally ignoring the question.

Instead of saying something like "give MNK the Balance Buff as He deals the most damage" you answer that AST uses RNG and can AOE

so whats your solution; delete them, along with MNK, RDM, SMN, maybe NIN and give the remaining DPS better Utility. Or buff them to a point its better to take a party full of SAMs or BLMs. or Nerf everything. Oh, maybe we get rid of jobs entirely and just make it so all the Jobs are just; Tank, Caster, Ranged DPS, Melee DPS, Healer?

[Shamox]

Ye thats not getting anywhere

[Mahrze]

General idea should be that Selfish jobs benefit even more from party utility than other party memebers

But they technically already do, the problem is that these selfish jobs don't really have skill-set synergy vs say, WAR and MNK (to a degree) who buff themselves to great extremes and outside of Slashing (WAR) and BH (MNK) and they give nothing back to the party.

Problem with SAM and BLM is they want to fix everything with potencies and it doesn't really bring much when the potency is like... 3% vs 5%+ rDPS the others can give. But they don't want to give them too much to avoid "SAM SAM BLM BLM" as the DPS comp.

MCH being treated as BRD with a different coat of paint doesn't help the job at all, shifting its damage type to blunt and increasing its potencies considerably would make a difference and shift it to a selfish job profile, but because the range factor role toolkit, it'd alienate a job like BLM/SMN since it would hit harder than them, have more mobility and utility.

At this point, the best way to go forward is removing the damage type buff/de-buffs, buffing the jobs that lose from this accordingly and limit them to Phys/Mag if they want to keep the debuff 'nuance" albeit non-stackable (obvs).

[Wayfinder3]

You can't just give SAM and BLM utility, they already do way too much damage when compared to other jobs. while you could keep buffing their numbers. How much do we have to do that before the meta revolves around them. MNK SMN who are essentially the more utility focused version are meta contenders but that doesn't mean that they are so strong you could carelessly buff BLM and SAM. Nerfs are an important part of maintaining balance and right now. MNK, MCH, and SMN are doing what they can to stay afloat. BRD and DRG need to be re-evaluated. NIN on the other hand is in a tough spot. it's pdps is so weak, you can't realistically touch it without breaking everything. even if you were to nerf trick and build it back into the kit. At that point it's another mnk

[Seraphor]

There's such a thing as selfish utility, aka taking but not giving.
BRD and MCH already have this with DRGs piercing debuff.

For example, Ley Lines could gain a trait that increases spellspeed even further if other party members stand in your Ley Lines.
Indirectly increasing the rDPS of any healer or caster who designs to stick with them.

[Seraphor]

SAM could get an overhaul of third eye, allowing any party member in range who scores a 'dodge' to activate the effect for the SAM as well.

[Seraphor]

Both of these suggestions increase the general synergy of a BLM or SAM, imploring other players to stack with and support the selfish DPS, but do so without simply buffing potencies, instead providing QoL enhancements that make them more effective at what they do an enable them to perform better.

[Sylvain]

. But they don't want to give them too much to avoid "SAM SAM BLM BLM" as the DPS comp.

Well that wouldn't happen for 3 reason

1- Most group don't care about meta (otherwise you would never see anything that is not meta), yet all job that aren't meta have cleared everything, even god Kefka has been cleared in pf with nonmeta job. Meta is only for speedkill, dps check have been considerably nerf since HW and that 2% more dps doesn't matter anymore as long everyone play their job fine and don't die like twat

2- Double job would reduce/kill the availability of LB3 which can eventually make you loose even more rdps

MCH being treated as BRD with a different coat of paint doesn't help the job at all, shifting its damage type to blunt and increasing its potencies considerably would make a difference and shift it to a selfish job profile, but because the range factor role toolkit, it'd alienate a job like BLM/SMN since it would hit harder than them, have more mobility and utility..

Well yes and no, the Range toolkit isn't exactly what makes the BRD the ultimate support
It's that + The song + The myriad of buffs they have (and especially the fact that manashift is a pile of garbage)
I mean the only useful thing they have is Refresh and Palissad
Half Refresh strength (AND greatly buff manashift) and that aspect just vanishes.

MCH could easily be turned into a selfish dps (and I personally think they should)
They don't need that many buffed (job related) to be removed

Remove Hypercharge and Dismantle and that's it you have a selfish dps job,

At this point, the best way to go forward is removing the damage type buff/de-buffs, buffing the jobs that lose from this accordingly and limit them to Phys/Mag if they want to keep the debuff 'nuance" albeit non-stackable (obvs)

Well this has been proposed over and over and as much as many people still want to keep these debuff, I tend to see more people against the debuff than for.

If SE wants to balance the game more and promote raid diversity (in the sens that you've less too good job synergy like DRG +RANGED), removed weapon type is a first, removing dmg type too (magic/physical), an issue with that is that if you have a SMN/RDM, you're stuck by having the buff only affect a part of the raid (highly reducing the player contribution)
A good example is RDM which makes the job less viable with other caster whereas the SMN either benefit from having a team of caster only of melee only OR range because you got to choose which debuff you apply.

[Kiyosuki]

It's not a bad idea, although these numbers definitely have to be a bit lower.

Unfortunately there's no real perfect answer to this problem, at the moment. Even taking damage types like pierce away will just open up a can of rebalancing worms for the devs because everything will come down to pure numbers, and even then that still won't solve some of the current issues. There's just too much overlap if you ask me. What REALLY needs to happen is that DPS job specialities need to be further defined and that'll take whole new abilities and a good amount of fundamental game mechanic rework, which we won't be likely even possibly seeing until the next expansion unfortunately.

That said, getting raid utility to get slightly higher burst from these "selfish dps" I don't think is a terrible idea. Still a bandaid fix but that's probably the best we can expect for now, that and just simply making the individual mechanics of the jobs in question feel a bit smoother I guess.

[Ilyrian]

Unfortunately there's no real perfect answer to this problem, at the moment.

In theory the only way to combat the current system would be to increase the minimum raid party size to include a slot for one of every class so people have the option to min/max without a restrictive meta comp.
Other than that it's just staying on the ever-turning wheel of class balance.