Holmgang is way too strong for how short the CD is and needs to be nerfed.

[Sparkthor]

I think as pure tool to denial dommage, holmgang is way better than living death and HG (even if HG also protect from debuff like Susano's one).

However, this is true then the fight is mastered without mistakes. When something go wrong (when learning fight), holmgang fall far far behind the two others, as it hardly protect the war from dying after the effect went off. And it last for 6s, and considering he must be used before dying, we can hardly say WAR can get more than 4s immunity from it.

Maybe i'm wrong but i'm not sure tanks defensive cd can really be compared one by one, as they are part of a full tool kit.

[Saeno]

However, this is true then the fight is mastered without mistakes. When something go wrong (when learning fight), holmgang fall far far behind the two others, as it hardly protect the war from dying after the effect went off. And it last for 6s, and considering he must be used before dying, we can hardly say WAR can get more than 4s immunity from it.

You don't exactly need more than one healer, as you can heal yourself as a WAR. if both healers are down then it might be more efficient to wipe and start again. Living dead is also much worse than holmgang in that scenario and hallowed is the only good one and even then, PLD could use either Living dead or Holmgang because the PLD can heal itself to full so it's moreso the PLD job than hallowed ground. So really I dont think its fair to say holmgang is "far behind" the others when in reality it isn't.

Maybe i'm wrong but i'm not sure tanks defensive cd can really be compared one by one, as they are part of a full tool kit.

Holmgang when compared to the rest of the WAR's kit makes even less sense. When you have a tank invul on a 3 minute CD, you would think that means you don't have a lot of other CD's and your tank would then be reliant on that 3 minute invul. However, WAR has a LOT of CD's, moreso than the other tanks when including inner beast, and all of them are just as strong as other tank CD's that are on a longer recast (vengenace compared to Sentinel/Shadow wall for example, or even Holmgang compared to Sentinel/Shadow wall).

[whiskeybravo]

You don't exactly need more than one healer, as you can heal yourself as a WAR.

Once, for a fraction of your HP. Not even enough to cover an auto attack unless Eq crits. You could perhaps count TOB, but not really, since it's either used for Upheaval damage increase or regularly as a CD. Or I guess you could count spamming IR+IB.. which again wouldn't be happening if you're using it like it should be used.

But alas, DRK can't do any of those things, so it must continue to mean that War is broken.

[Llus]

Holmgang....never really had a need for it unless it's in PvP or front line otherwise it's pretty much useless if you know how to tank with a WAR properly The whole binding is over rated and only real draw back is if your stuck in a mayor aoe or conal attack that can be avoided. .

You're playing WAR wrong. Holmgang is insanely good especially when paired with benediction or really any competent healer.

[Llus]

In my 4 years of playing this game, I have never had an issue timing holmgang. The effect speed of Holmgang is much faster than Hallowed or Benediction, near instant if I could put it one way. You also don't need to be healed much at all with Holmgang. A simple oGCD heal will take care of the WAR once Holmgang nearly expires.

There are timing issues with gang, but they're not really that bad. When you're trying to time a last-second gang so you can get off an onslaught or cover the buster and follow-up raid-wide or auto-attack damage for example; if your timing isn't right you can have it go on CD but miss the effect and die (not nearly as bad as hallowed last-second usage though; I think it's likely due to the invuln triggering at cast time for gang and during/after animation for hallowed). Most of the timing issues with gang are when your team is trying to optimize; like gang to cover a buster and raid-wide, tank swap, no heal left at 1hp for 2 more GCDs etc.

I agree, holmgang is insanely powerful and would be insanely powerful on any tank. The drawbacks to using gang are very few. If you're keeping the boss after you gang or there will be raid-wide damage coming out you'll need a heal; but benediction or an excog + essential dignity will take care of that. The biggest issue I see with holmgang (or any invulns) is that tank damage is really REALLY low. Being able to use gang for every odd buster on o7s for example; using invulns for all but the last buster on clown kefka; using invulns for every buster except 1 or 2 (depending on how you tank swap) on god kefka is kinda broken. (although, god kefka's double-drill does tend to force usage of invulns since we're using our other CDs for the wings double-drill so kudos to SE for the damage on that fight). If autos were more punishing and busters were more frequent, your tank toolkit would suddenly look sparse. When you can cheese an entire fight just using invulns, the fight isn't really well thought-out (outside of rampart and sentinel for dadaluma and bibiliotaph before you activate hallowed, every tankbuster except 1 can be mitigated with invulns). I really don't want gang nerfed; I absolutely love it. What I want is more punishing tank damage so that you're required to have more tank swaps; you're required to have people bring palisade, feint, apocatastasis AND even stance dance. Even without holmgang it's just too easy to survive as a tank while being in DPS stance 100% of the fight.

[Quor]

Poe's Law is great.

Poe's law *is* indeed great. Not as great as the irony in this thread by any means, but still great.

Anyway, more on point, I (and many others here) have made suggestions about how to improve DRK. Most of those are ignored or denigrated by the same peanut gallery who somehow think nerfing another job will improve "their" job. They say this while missing the point that "their" job is actually everyone's job, since that's the nature of this game. I'm a pretty hardcore tank in the sense that I enjoy all three, although WAR is my most comfy tank as far "let's do something difficult today" goes. But it's always been that way for me, even in 2.0 when WAR was seen as a liability due to having no invincibility CD and no damage reduction CD's at all. I have my bear mount from 2.0 and 3.0, as well as my armored bear mount from 4.0. I have my panther mount from 3.0, and I'm about 2/3 of the way to the armored panther mount in 4.0. I almost have the lion mount from 2.0 and 3.0, and I've got about 60 or so towards the armored lion mount in 4.0. I've used all three tanks extensively in almost all of the content currently in game. So when I come and see yet another "nerf other tank plz" thread I just have to shake my head at the inexperience and shortsightedness of it all.

I can't even be bothered to suggest anything on the forums here anymore. I get a more productive response on other sites than I do here, and near enough as I can tell, that's because people generally just like to complain, almost like some kind of victim culture but for FF14. God forbid someone comes in and suggest a change that doesn't also involve nerfing something on another job. So please, continue your self-pitying circle jerk. Lash out at all those PLD's and WAR's even harder. Drag everyone down to your level, cause that'll show 'em! Or something. Just, whatever you do, don't think about the consequences of your actions, especially about how they will affect other players. Oh, and never suggest anything that's a complete positive for your class unless you tie it into complaining about another class. Treat the game like it's zero-sum even though it isn't.

[Saeno]

Once, for a fraction of your HP. Not even enough to cover an auto attack unless Eq crits. You could perhaps count TOB, but not really, since it's either used for Upheaval damage increase or regularly as a CD. Or I guess you could count spamming IR+IB.. which again wouldn't be happening if you're using it like it should be used.

But alas, DRK can't do any of those things, so it must continue to mean that War is broken.

Hmmm not really because in this scenario PLD is the clear winner. WAR does have options to self heal and while some of them are good, they dont compare to Clemency. However, comparing Holmgang to only PLD and not DRK, I still seriously don't think you can justify a tank invul on a 3 minute CD when you have so many CD's or when that is the same CD is Sentinel.

[Saeno]

I agree, holmgang is insanely powerful and would be insanely powerful on any tank. The drawbacks to using gang are very few. If you're keeping the boss after you gang or there will be raid-wide damage coming out you'll need a heal; but benediction or an excog + essential dignity will take care of that. The biggest issue I see with holmgang (or any invulns) is that tank damage is really REALLY low. Being able to use gang for every odd buster on o7s for example; using invulns for all but the last buster on clown kefka; using invulns for every buster except 1 or 2 (depending on how you tank swap) on god kefka is kinda broken.

I dont want to say having a lot of tank invuls up for a fight is broken because at that point you're saying that WE the player are too strong for PvE, and that's a bold statement. However, the tank CD line up that I mention of super CD->holmgang->super CD->cotank invul is always prevelant and to me that's so boring. I want to cleverly line up my CDs instead of relying on this very strong and very obvious CD rotation for every fight.

I really don't want gang nerfed; I absolutely love it. What I want is more punishing tank damage so that you're required to have more tank swaps; you're required to have people bring palisade, feint, apocatastasis AND even stance dance. Even without holmgang it's just too easy to survive as a tank while being in DPS stance 100% of the fight.

That would be excellent. It would address another issue with this game but I think the issue really lies with the lower difficulty of savage now.

[Sparkthor]

In don't think savage are easy. A lot of people never succeed in them. I also don't think they are easier than before, but better balanced (it's my point of view).

Also, bosses in FF are way more about mechanics than about stuff and continuous pressure. And with a good team, after some runs, you only got no to few mistake, and savage is not about "one mistake = wipe" (at least now).
Also savage are somehow "low retriction access" : you only need ilvl 350 for o8 when max ilvl is 370. I don't think a lot of people succeed in o8 the first week with crafted gear and few 370 drops.

And the new top top end content is fatals raids, which are insanely difficult considering top raiders need about 2 weeks to complete the first one.

[Lyth]

...

Invulns remove the entrance HP threshold for tankbusters. If you're getting hit by a proper tankbuster (i.e. something that will one-shot you unmitigated), you need to be topped off beforehand, and you'll still need some healing afterwards. With an invuln, you just need a bit of healing afterwards.

If your healers know your cooldown rotation (which they should), using an invuln in place of multiple cooldowns works to their advantage (in every case except for LD, of course). It requires that the tank get over their anxiety of hitting 1 HP, of course.

Of course, you can always cite cases in which you overgear content, at which point it doesn't really matter what your mitigation strategy is. I think the assertion that "Holmgang is extremely powerful, but I can't be bothered to use it most of the time because of how powerful the rest of my kit is", while probably accurate, doesn't really address the claim in the OP.