Holmgang is way too strong for how short the CD is and needs to be nerfed.

[Quor]

This thread is worth it just for the salt.

Any true tank plays all 3 at the end game and knows they have their strengths and weaknesses. WAR is strong sure, but need I remind people that JP world first O8S clear was a DRK mt? Apparently I do.

[Chrono_Rising]

This thread is worth it just for the salt.

Any true tank plays all 3 at the end game and knows they have their strengths and weaknesses. WAR is strong sure, but need I remind people that JP world first O8S clear was a DRK mt? Apparently I do.

I guess the actual world first of warrior/paladin no longer matters, only JP world first does now.

[Lambdafish]

This thread is worth it just for the salt.

Any true tank plays all 3 at the end game and knows they have their strengths and weaknesses. WAR is strong sure, but need I remind people that JP world first O8S clear was a DRK mt? Apparently I do.

This doesn't actually mean anything, all jobs are viable. The world first of ultimate coil had a DRK, and he openly stated that PLD/WAR would have been better and he just wanted to play DRK.

Viability =/= Good Balance

[Hierro]

I guess the actual world first of warrior/paladin no longer matters, only JP world first does now.

Yeah man, cause world first for a tier easier than deltascape and doesn't even compare to ultimate is a valid point.

[WhyAmIHere]

Yeah man, cause world first for a tier easier than deltascape and doesn't even compare to ultimate is a valid point.

I guess the only metrics that matter in designing any content is which caliber of players can clear the content first and before anyone else.

[Chrono_Rising]

Yeah man, cause world first for a tier easier than deltascape and doesn't even compare to ultimate is a valid point.

They are arguing for balance based on composition of who cleared o8s on the Japanese data centers, and I am point out how ridiculous this sounds. They are not talking about Ultimate, not even sigmascape, we are talking o8s. Again this makes me feel like these types of arguments aren't based on any sort of internal consistency. World first in deltascape was important because it helped wars make a point "Warrior wasn't world first" Buffed. Ultimate was important because again "Warrior wasn't world first" Buffed. Now Warrior is in world first, and its not valid because we are going to call the tier easy. Lets not even bring up how subjective the difficulty of a tier is, just think about how the world first on o8s doesn't matter, but the JP datacenter world first of o8s does. Do you see how ridiculous this is?

Lets not forget that Warrior has since seen several large buffs since that time, and isn't even really comparable to what is was in v4s pre 4.1.

And As WhyAmIHere points out, world first race is about viability of a class and the skill level of the players, not the extent of how it feels to play, and whether it feels valuable compared to the other tanks, which I would argue "#worldfirst" isn't measuring these variables.

[WhyAmIHere]

And As WhyAmIHere points out, world first race is about viability of a class and the skill level of the players, not the extent of how it feels to play, and whether it feels valuable compared to the other tanks, which I would argue "#worldfirst" isn't measuring these variables.

Maybe I worded myself poorly? Maybe I misunderstood what you're saying? IDK I ain't that bright.
What I meant to imply was "World first doesn't matter except for e-pride." Balance shouldn't be determined on who clears content, but what. UCoB is the gold standard for that I feel. "DRK World First UCoB so it's fine it don't need buffs" nonsense. Disregarding the context that the DRK in that group was skilled n his own merit, had the team cohesion to make the setup work, and chose to use DRK for his own personal enjoyment... this tangent's been beaten like a dead horse enough.

On topic: As far as holmgang goes: It's both fine, too good, and too weak I feel. (Disclaimer: I am not a WAR main, haven't taken WAR into savage / any high-end content, and personally don't enjoy how it feels to play) It's fine in that, for 6s you know what you're getting, unkillability. Sure, you're rooted in place, and that's supposed to be a negative, but any skilled player of any class should be able to turn a negative point into either a positive, or know how to minimize the negative impact of [thing]. It's too good because of how often you can use it; though that has more to do with how the developers design the encounters in the game, so it's less a fault of WAR's having a skill being too good, but that the game allows it to be so impactful. Lastly, it's too weak in that you still take damage, and if you screw up the placement of yourself when you use it, and you root yourself in an AoE or something, and your healer isn't ready for when 6s elapse, well... bye.

In that sense, I'd say when compared to Hallowed and Walking, Holmgang is the one area where WAR is between the two tanks.
HG is just flat out great in-that (when it works) you take 0 damage for 10s. pure and simple, sweet and to the point.
WD is a catch-22. Yes, for 10s* you can't be killed, like holmgang, but it carries the punishment of death if the status isn't removed at the end of those 10s. (*: WD lasts anywhere from 1-10 seconds, so you can have anywhere in that window of time where you can't die. great when you have >6s of use out of it, lesser than Holm if you have ≤6s out of it.)
I'd honestly like to see Holm upped to 7s, but with a longer recast. It'd still achieve the same effect, but it'd give you/your healers more time to adjust to it, and (IMO) it'd be more healthy to have it's use be more carefully planned around.

[Chrono_Rising]

Maybe I worded myself poorly? Maybe I misunderstood what you're saying? IDK I ain't that bright.
What I meant to imply was "World first doesn't matter except for e-pride." Balance shouldn't be determined on who clears content, but what. UCoB is the gold standard for that I feel. "DRK World First UCoB so it's fine it don't need buffs" nonsense. Disregarding the context that the DRK in that group was skilled n his own merit, had the team cohesion to make the setup work, and chose to use DRK for his own personal enjoyment... this tangent's been beaten like a dead horse enough.

Yeah, this is what I thought you meant, and my response (I hope) comes off as clearly agreeing with you. IMO world first is much more an indication of a talented group of players. World first is an incredible achievement but as far as telling how well jobs are performing gives too little information, mainly because there is only one instance of something happening. It proves dark knight is viable, but anyone who cleared with any class proves that class is viable.

Dark Knights complain their DPS is too low for what they bring to a party: Is that measured in World First? No.

Dark Knights complain the animation lock is too long on skills is too long: Is that measured by world first? No.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

This thread is worth it just for the salt.

Any true tank plays all 3 at the end game and knows they have their strengths and weaknesses. WAR is strong sure, but need I remind people that JP world first O8S clear was a DRK mt? Apparently I do.

Lmao, everyone joked about it, but I guess there really are people who thought "well they cleared Ultimate so they must be good".

[WhyAmIHere]

Lmao, everyone joked about it, but I guess there really are people who thought "well they cleared Ultimate so they must be good".

Poe's Law is great.