Black magic...kinda sucks

[Malkria]

It's still 100% sounds like you don't understand what you're doing.

Wow...no you know what, I don't care anymore. That is all any of you have said, despite not being able to respond with more "well you just move during GCD", which is exactly what using swift and triple cast is about. What exactly am I not understanding? So since that seems to be all anyone can say, continuing to respond and explain myself, only to be told what I am thinking or feeling, is just continued masochism on my part. But now, after being tired of being told I am a 'he' I guess I'm playing the victim card by pointing out that I am a woman.

Like I said, shout down long enough until the dissenter goes away. So good game "guys", guess that means you win. 9.9

[Mahrze]

Wow...no you know what, I don't care anymore. That is all any of you have said, despite not being able to respond with more "well you just move during GCD", which is exactly what using swift and triple cast is about. What exactly am I not understanding? So since that seems to be all anyone can say, continuing to respond and explain myself, only to be told what I am thinking or feeling, is just continued masochism on my part. But now, after being tired of being told I am a 'he' I guess I'm playing the victim card by pointing out that I am a woman.

Like I said, shout down long enough until the dissenter goes away. So good game "guys", guess that means you win. 9.9

I understand where you come from and its one of the quirks of BLM, and your train of thought on it is not different to what I have seen or thought some times. But BLM is in the unique spot of having to play with the slide-cast gimmick the players have encouraged and SE not showing any change to that, even though people would expect differently since its the (supposed) main job the producer plays.

I don't want do discourage discussion, but I can tell you that whatever you see in this game, you're better of saying: "it is what it is" even though, like you've pointed out, you'd like to see some of these things fixed and you don't consider you're the only one in that spot.

[Zerathor]

It's the planning aspect you don't quite get.
Blm does suffer from downtime fights, but it can be mitigated by proper use of your resources. Knowing when to cut your cycle short because you won't get to use a full mp bar anyway, forcing a f3p with sharp to get straight back to astral fire 3 after transposing and waiting, using triple cast/swift to start back up after downtime. There's various ways to set yourself up so that downtime in fights won't effect you as harshly, and almost become unnoticeable. The buff to proc duration in 4.2 greatly assisted that option, by allowing you to better hold procs for mobility rather than hastily spend them like other jobs, and also the transpose cd reduction. Blm has options on their proc usage for comfort rather than raw gain.

Adjust to the playstyle more and it becomes easier and more rewarding to properly utilize all the tools at your disposal. All jobs have unique quirks to assist them in different boss fights, but blm is one of the few jobs that NEEDS to learn them. It has one of the highest gaps from the skill floor to the ceiling, and that's not a bad thing, it just needs to be respected.

And there's a difference between correcting somebody by saying you're a woman once, and harping on it after every post to imply we're bullying you for it. It's not relevant to anybody's point and it just looks bad on your part to make appeal to emotion a core part of your argument. Nobody really gives a damn about that.

[Kabooa]

I guess I'm playing the victim card by pointing out that I am a woman.

Like I said, shout down long enough until the dissenter goes away. So good game "guys", guess that means you win. 9.9

A) Irrelevant.

B) Fine, I'll go through your original post point by point. I like to consider myself a pretty dang good Black Mage, not quite on Sfia's level, but enough to address this.

Edit: FORMATTING

Ok I started out loving the black mage, but apparently was playing 'over geared' or something since now that I've hit mid-sixty range the job...just kind of sucks. The cast times I could live with, the need to switch between fire and ice is fine, but the timer...just kills it. With base gear you MAYBE can get three fire fours out before you need to toss a quick fire one or switch stances. But with the sheer amount of moving involved not only does the black mage have to work the hardest of all the classes to do damage but whether or not you do the mechanics you get screwed out of a lot of fights.

Gear scales in this game. You will never hit the point of natural spellspeed where Fire 1 isn't required, as that requires a near 1.8 cast time on Fire 4 at all times, which is about 35% spell speed. Currently your highest natural gear you can get is 14%.

Every job suffers from mechanics, some just suffer a little more. Black Mage and Monk have the shortest, but Black Mage doesn't require a target or any other conditional to keep theirs. If a Monk has to run out of melee at a bad time, they're forced to either eat a hit (not ideal) or risk killing someone with said mechanic. Black Mage hits transpose. It's not a punishment to prevent the worst case scenario.

Take the ruby sea dungeon. The first boss isn't to bad, you just need to avoid the water drops from the add and placement can make it easy to take it out. But the second boss has two mechanics. One with he eruption that makes you have to run and thus probably lose your timer, and the second with seduce which again will probably make you lose your timer. The final boss is similar, with long phases where you can't attack anything, and thus lose your timer.

Swift cast, sharp cast, good use of Thunder procs. Transpose on the last boss if you have to.

Frankly I don't even think you need major changes to make the job not feel so bad to play. First off the ley-lines could be a buff for going through a full ice-fire switch with full charges and every time you switch after that it resets. Second, having you lose complete charges feels to heavy handed. But having you lose a charge when the timer runs out every three seconds would give enough breathing room to the timer while better allowing the job to do mechanics without losing all momentum.

Leylines is currently one of the only abilities in the game that actively changes your behavior. We need more of these, not less, as currently many abilities you simply spam on cooldown (Attack oriented ones) or mash during burst windows (Buff oriented ones). Leylines requires spatial forethought as well as minimizing the impact random aoes can have on it (Such as standing on the edge so the aoe doesn't cover the whole thing. Move to the other end. Easy street)

AF's timers and the conflict it has with the mechanics thrown at you is like, the main attraction when dealing with Black Mage. Loosening up this particular part of the Job makes it intrinsically less interesting. Easier, but less interesting. AF/UI timers aren't hard to keep so long as you keep your Spellspeed in mind and what it allows you to abuse. There is nothing more satisfying than skirting the timer.

I like the job itself and the power it brings, but it isn't the top DPS and it's mechanics seem to but heads with the dungeon/raid design of the entire game. With those combined the question should be how to make the black mage better fit into the game, because right now the RDM is more fun to play even if it doesn't hit as hard simply because it feels better suited tot he game at large then the supposed heavy hitter black mage is.

Red Mage is also considered one of the least valuable jobs because you have fewer opportunities to excel. The Black Mage may not feel, at first handle, as good as a Red Mage in most content, but a Black Mage is one of the most satisfying jobs to optimize precisely because it's harder to handle. Split second proc management, knowing when you can be greedy, knowing when you can dump your leylines, knowing when you don't have to run out, abusing every timer you have.

That's the job. That's what makes it great. The simple rotation and mechanics are deceptive in this mastery because it's 'easy' to be okay at Black Mage, but very hard to be very good at it. If it's not for you, there's no shame in that.

[EllieShadeflare]

Ignored the forums for a while, and THIS is what I see? Welp, gonna take on a few points.

Well according to a lot of people in this thread everything about the BLM is fine...except if you go back in the forums history you will see a LOT of people who apparently find various aspects of the job needing to be fixed. So...apparently I have a leg to stand on here, and you and your patrization can go somewhere else yourself.

Except those were about things that have been subsequently fixed. At the start of SB, we were absolutely terrible unless you forget about our new mechanics and just use the old Heavensward rotation of 4x Fire IV since our new 6x rotation was not built with 3s cast times in mind. Then it was reduced to 2.8s. We pointed out that we still lost damage (between Fire IV's nerf from its original base potency 280 in HW and Raging Strikes being gone) despite the new inclusion of Foul... and that too got somewhat fixed by bringing Fire IV back to 280 base potency. Issues of mobility have been acknowledged, and the dev team is working on them, between the enhancements to our proc timers or the buffs to Aetherial Manipulation (believe it or not, before Stormblood, AM was a whopping 180 timer! Stormblood made it 35s, and then 4.2 made it 10s!) and Transpose. Heck, 4.3 is going to add more buffs to our teleports to make them more useful!

Ah yes, the "you just don't like it because you don't understand the nuances...so let me get this straight. The job is supposed to be a 'turret' with a very simple rotation, so what nuance am I missing? Just because I don't like the movement of the system does not mean I don't get the 'deep and nuanced aspects of the job'...it means I feel the job can be a turret while not having to rely on GCD gaps for movement.

I mean... there's Slidecasting. At the last little bit of your cast time, you can move and complete your cast. So there's that.

You can either claim it's a simple turret job with a simple rotation, or you can claim there is a deep nuanced system I'm not getting. But trying to argue both is frankly insulting to both of us, you for not making a better argument and me for your thinking i'm stupid enough to buy said argument.

The simplicity is our rotation and our "identity". The nuance comes from navigating that identity and rotation around the fact the game wants to be more mobile.

Can you point to the official line that describes the BLM as a 'turret job'?

No official line, certainly, but perhaps the fact that none of its attack abilities exist off of the global cooldown, and even its instant casts are still on the global cooldown could be a good indication. Also, Leylines. Leylines is a thing.

Sounds to me that the detractors in this thread can't be bothered to argue why the job is fine as it is when better options exist. But hey, I'm on the internet so I guess it's my fault for thinking people actually try to use logic to convince each other...I keep forgetting the preferred method is shout the other person down as a group, make them a strawman, and put intent and words in front of what they actually are saying. Silly me, guess I better get going before someone tells me to get back in the kitchen or some other stupid shit next.

Wow...no you know what, I don't care anymore. That is all any of you have said, despite not being able to respond with more "well you just move during GCD", which is exactly what using swift and triple cast is about. What exactly am I not understanding? So since that seems to be all anyone can say, continuing to respond and explain myself, only to be told what I am thinking or feeling, is just continued masochism on my part. But now, after being tired of being told I am a 'he' I guess I'm playing the victim card by pointing out that I am a woman.

Like I said, shout down long enough until the dissenter goes away. So good game "guys", guess that means you win. 9.9

Aaaaaaand this is the point where you showcase that you had no intention of arguing honestly. Like. At all. I'm not sure if anyone else has told you what slidecasting is (I explained it in this post) but complaining that nobody is listening to you because they refute your points is just... Just... sad.

People know the job is fine because:

A. They know that BLM is rather mistake friendly despite its almost unfitting design choices in such a mobile MMO

B. They know that BLM is top of the charts in damage, even on the 75th percentile

C. Black Mage got and gets the buffs it needs to survive

D. Black Mage isn't Red Mage

E. Only Summoner can match our raw damage.

F. Other classes have different playstyles that may have more reliance on irrelevant buttons or overly high attention to your mechanics, but Black Mage mostly just has to focus on the game and its timer. Their rotation is simple, yes, but the trouble is manipulating their rotation around the movement and chaos of FFXIV. And that's not even that hard.

You came into this wanting to complain about how bad you thought Black Mage was. When people told you it wasn't the garbage heap you thought it was, you started to complain that people were attacking you and refusing to listen to you. People have listened. They simply don't agree with you, and trying to ACT like a victim (which you claim you aren't, but you lose THAT argument by saying things like "shout down long enough until the dissenter leaves", saying people are strawmannning you without evidence, and even attempting to use MISOGYNY as an excuse to be dishonest (low blow. Low blow.)) just makes you look more and more dishonest.

This is something I have issue with myself, but part of having arguments and discussions on the internet is understanding that people WILL disagree with you. And WILL keep their opinions rather stubbornly. However, assuming you're entirely right and your opponents are entirely wrong from start to finish will NEVER help you. When forming your arguments, you can't keep to the same hill you're fighting on, unless you've actually examined the other hill and realized "oh hey, no, their hill is a bad one, it has too much mud".

[KaivaC]

But now, after being tired of being told I am a 'he' I guess I'm playing the victim card by pointing out that I am a woman.

None of which has anything to do with the discussion at hand, so you can put your victim card away.

There are nuances of the job that you aren't going to get until you hit 70. As it is, a lot of jobs after SB's arrival are incomplete until you hit 70. Still, I stand by my suggestion that if the turret aspect of BLM feels off or doesn't work for you, try one of the other casters and see if that fits your playstyle more.

[Malkria]

None of which has anything to do with the discussion at hand, so you can put your victim card away.

There are nuances of the job that you aren't going to get until you hit 70. As it is, a lot of jobs after SB's arrival are incomplete until you hit 70. Still, I stand by my suggestion that if the turret aspect of BLM feels off or doesn't work for you, try one of the other casters and see if that fits your playstyle more.

If there are "nuances of the job you aren't going to get until you hit 70" (which by the way I have)...then when you say as far as you have gotten is lvl 30 how would you know how right or wrong I am? Because everyone else is saying so? As for the victim card, I went 7 pages before I corrected anyone, but because I have now suddenly I am playing the victim because I got tired of everyone reffering me to a he? Right...or is it because the implication is that talking to a woman as so many of you have is somehow worse then talking to a guy, and now that I revealed I am a woman you are trying to cover your arse?

If your argument is that I just don't know the job, when you yourself have admitted you have played the job less then me, then shouldn't by your logic you be staying out of this? So either you are admitting you can have an opinion about a job before 70, that you are simply parroting others here, or that you are a hypocrite. Which is it, or is it 'D' and all of the above?

[Menriq]

If there are "nuances of the job you aren't going to get until you hit 70" (which by the way I have)...then when you say as far as you have gotten is lvl 30 how would you know how right or wrong I am? Because everyone else is saying so? As for the victim card, I went 7 pages before I corrected anyone, but because I have now suddenly I am playing the victim because I got tired of everyone reffering me to a he? Right...or is it because the implication is that talking to a woman as so many of you have is somehow worse then talking to a guy, and now that I revealed I am a woman you are trying to cover your arse?

If your argument is that I just don't know the job, when you yourself have admitted you have played the job less then me, then shouldn't by your logic you be staying out of this? So either you are admitting you can have an opinion about a job before 70, that you are simply parroting others here, or that you are a hypocrite. Which is it, or is it 'D' and all of the above?

I won't speak for others, but I specifically never called you a he or she. I responded directly to you, not in third person. With that said, I think correcting them once would have been enough. If they change their opinion based on your gender, that's a them problem and something they would need to deal with. Back on topic, I'm reading KaivaC's comments as a generalization (as in, several jobs don't fully flesh out until 70), not BLM specific. However, if KaivaC was trying to talk about BLM, and is not 70, my opinion would be the same for them as it is for you. Until there is extensive experience, I'd defer to the more experienced person as they've been playing it through several iterations, and thus have more of a baseline to make suggestions. Not to say you shouldn't be expressing your opinion, just that I wouldn't put much weight in it. Yes, this holds true for me as well as I'm just getting around to having BLM be my main, so I have a long way to go in learning all the nuances before offering suggestions.

[Malkria]

Until there is extensive experience, I'd defer to the more experienced person as they've been playing it through several iterations, and thus have more of a baseline to make suggestions. Not to say you shouldn't be expressing your opinion, just that I wouldn't put much weight in it. Yes, this holds true for me as well as I'm just getting around to having BLM be my main, so I have a long way to go in learning all the nuances before offering suggestions.

Which in turn is flawed for various reasons. Already I have had people telling me that Heavensward or 4.1 BLM had it much worse then it is currently at. While that may be true, it doesn't change the fact that the isuess being discussed are how the job is played TODAY. That also negates a new person who may not be a 'veteran' of the job, but still is a vital source of feedback because a new perspective might be overlooked by someone who is used to a certain way of doing things. That would be like ignoring the feedback of new blood in your workplace because "well that just isn't how things are done" even though said feedback might very well make things better in whatever regards. Third...just because things work again does not mean it is a good design. Just because something is functional does not mean it is a good design, these two concepts are not mutually exclusive.

Finally, the biggest fallacy of this argument is that it would me we should always defer to the person with the most experience, but that in itself is dangerous logic because just because someone has been playing longer does not automatically translate to a better understanding of a game or even game design. For all you the dissenting voice could have years of experience outside of said game either as a "professional" gamer, game designer, reviewer, or any other job that requires critical thought of how a game is put together. Even if they didn't, depending on their background of games played with a diverse enough history they could still have just as valid a critical eye as those who have a more professional take of the matter. So simply going by "Well they have played more then you, so they know more" is actually not a good worldview to take, in any part of one's life. That is why we have critical thinking skills (or we should hopefully).

I'm reading KaivaC's comments as a generalization (as in, several jobs don't fully flesh out until 70), not BLM specific.

Except he literally called me out to say that it was because of me and THIS thread that he was even taking an interest in the job, going so far as to cite playtime in the PoTD as in his eyes negating my argument. So again, going by your logic he shouldn't be weighing in. So either his viewpoint is valid despite less experience then me in the job, his argument is based on parroting others in regards to this job, or he is a hypocrite. By specifically stating I don't understand the nuances, he is inferring that even with less experience and less time spent in the class he is able to understand the fundamentals of the job and how it is meant to be played. In which case I could turn around and use the argument made against me in that he hasn't hit 70 and isn't as experienced in the job so he doesn't know what he is talking about. Which in turn is demonstrating all the fallacy I was pointing out above.

Level isn't a measure of proficiency.

Which flies in the face of everything people were telling me in the beginning in that I hadn't gotten to 70 and thus couldn't make an accurate judgment on the job. Funny how that works now that you have someone who is less the 70, and who agrees with your stance, how suddenly level doesn't matter for knowing the 'nuances' of this job.

[Kabooa]

Which flies in the face of everything people were telling me in the beginning in that I hadn't gotten to 70 and thus couldn't make an accurate judgment on the job. Funny how that works now that you have someone who is less the 70, and who agrees with your stance, how suddenly level doesn't matter for knowing the 'nuances' of this job.

I ain't everyone.

Level is not a measure of proficiency. It doesn't take much to figure this out. Understanding and execution are two different things, but neither is related to level, and barely related to the leveling process, as is readily apparent.

You know what measures proficiency?

Proficiency.

How can you tell who's proficient at Black Mage? You take the aggregate data available and look at who does the best of them. Most actions taken, most damage dealt, most uptime, least damage taken, amount of single buffs received, etc.

Even if every single black mage was playing it wrong, the one sitting on top is still the best one of the dumpster. High Level Black Mage play is about taking the simple mechanics presented and working them in an environment that seems antithetical to the Black Mage's existence.

That's the point of the job. There's no shame in going elsewhere if that's not your stick.