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  1. #71
    Player
    Zerathor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    441
    Character
    Jack Cinder
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Black Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Popotato View Post
    I feel like we should just let this thread fade into obscurity. None of our points are going through to OP, and he has no valid points himself to offer. We've tickled his delusions enough. This isn't really a discussion, and OP never had any intention of it being a discussion.
    Yeah... this is becoming abundantly clear....

    OP, if by some strange chance you aren't actually trolling, this is a job that requires practice. The difference between a bad blm and good blm, or even average to good, is a much bigger performance gap than other jobs. This job's challenge is figuring out how to manage uptime, and that's fun for people who actually play blm.

    Blm is the only true "caster" dps in this game, and some people want that.

    If you can't handle the uniqueness of this playstyle, there are other ranged options that are easier to pick up. Bard and rdm tend to have a much more forgiving skill floor to start with. Smn has a lot to learn about with optimization, but is far more mobile and small mistakes aren't as damaging as they are to a blm. Mch... I can't speak much about. Don't mch if don't have the ping for wildfire I guess.
    (4)
    Last edited by Zerathor; 05-15-2018 at 11:22 PM.

  2. #72
    Player
    Menriq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    583
    Character
    Meridia Astra
    World
    Maduin
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Malkria View Post
    Well according to a lot of people in this thread everything about the BLM is fine...except if you go back in the forums history you will see a LOT of people who apparently find various aspects of the job needing to be fixed. So...apparently I have a leg to stand on here, and you and your patrization can go somewhere else yourself.
    Sounds like you are taking this personal. It's hard to have a civil discussion when one party decides they are personally attacked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malkria View Post
    Ah yes, the "you just don't like it because you don't understand the nuances...so let me get this straight. The job is supposed to be a 'turret' with a very simple rotation, so what nuance am I missing? Just because I don't like the movement of the system does not mean I don't get the 'deep and nuanced aspects of the job'...it means I feel the job can be a turret while not having to rely on GCD gaps for movement.

    You can either claim it's a simple turret job with a simple rotation, or you can claim there is a deep nuanced system I'm not getting. But trying to argue both is frankly insulting to both of us, you for not making a better argument and me for your thinking i'm stupid enough to buy said argument.
    Please re-read what I said. I said it appears you are don't have a master of the class / job. Perhaps if you have had extensive experience across different content, your opinion might carry more weight. I'm not an expert on BLM, so I defer to those with more experience. I can certainly provide my opinion, but chances are if I don't understand something to the depth others do, I should take the opportunity to learn more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malkria View Post
    Can you point to the official line that describes the BLM as a 'turret job'?
    I wasn't making the assertion of what the core BLM is. Therefore, since you are making the claim, the onus is on you to back up your statement. A perfect example was your claim that BLM is not top DPS, yet objective evidence (FFLogs) apparently debunks your statement.


    Quote Originally Posted by Malkria View Post
    Sounds to me that the detractors in this thread can't be bothered to argue why the job is fine as it is when better options exist. But hey, I'm on the internet so I guess it's my fault for thinking people actually try to use logic to convince each other...I keep forgetting the preferred method is shout the other person down as a group, make them a strawman, and put intent and words in front of what they actually are saying. Silly me, guess I better get going before someone tells me to get back in the kitchen or some other stupid shit next.
    I won't speak to the end of your comment, but what you feel is better options is subjective. Let's take a step back, and work with what limited data we can objectively review, which is this thread. This thread alone has offered several logical explanations of why things are fine. It might be subjective, but the thing is, there are several different people who agree your suggestions are not good. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but if you take it being shot down personally, that seems a your problem.
    (3)

  3. #73
    Player
    Malkria's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    114
    Character
    Selina Maimhov
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Menriq View Post
    Sounds like you are taking this personal. It's hard to have a civil discussion when one party decides they are personally attacked.
    No my issue is that every single person has led off with "well you just don't like it because you don't know what you are doing". Or that I looked at FFlogs and just wanted to do maximem DPS, but the class is 'hard' and I don't like that. Or that I simply haven't gotten the next ability that solves all my issues. No it couldn't possibly be that I have played games for years, have played similar archetypes to the BLM in many games across genres, and couldn't possibly understand the deep and nuanced nature of BLM as a 'turret DPS'. I must just be a random silly girl who dared question the community and not like their beloved job and so uppity as to call out the fact that it really could have been done better. Or since everyone was assuming I was a guy, just some random bloke who just couldn't wrap his head around a three button combo.

    So sorry I am 'offended' by a bunch of dudes who apparently like to tell me what I was thinking or feeling when I made the post or how stupid I am for 'just not getting' the BLM job. After a few days of having a group of people talk down to you, I imagine getting a little terse would be natural for anyone. If you don't like that, oh well. I would say maybe treat the next person better, but that won't happen because you all are "right" and I am "wrong" because reasons. 9.9

    Quote Originally Posted by Menriq View Post
    Please re-read what I said. I said it appears you are don't have a master of the class / job.
    Because by all that is holy I am tired of listening to the broken record, and that no matter how many times I explain "i get it". Apparently you think i'm just a dumb girl who doesn't. You don't need to 'master a job' to get how a job works. That is like saying you have to be a master gamer to review games. 9.9
    (0)
    Last edited by Malkria; 05-15-2018 at 11:40 PM.

  4. #74
    Player
    Zerathor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    441
    Character
    Jack Cinder
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Black Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Malkria View Post
    So sorry I am 'offended' by a bunch of dudes who apparently like to tell me what I was thinking or feeling when I made the post or how stupid I am for 'just not getting' the BLM job. After a few days of having a group of people talk down to you, I imagine getting a little terse would be natural for anyone. If you don't like that, oh well. I would say maybe treat the next person better, but that won't happen because you all are "right" and I am "wrong" because reasons. 9.9
    It's still 100% sounds like you don't understand what you're doing. Your biological gender has nothing to do with your lack of understanding in this matter, and bringing it up constantly as your victim card doesn't make your case look any stronger. It just looks worse tbh.

    Give it actual time to grasp how everything works fully, and you'll find blm is actually pretty cozy to play as in savage.
    (5)

  5. #75
    Player
    Mahrze's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    796
    Character
    Mahrze Crossner
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 80
    When both sides don't know how to convey a message, threads like this happen...

    4.3 can't come soon enough >.>
    (0)
    If you say so.

  6. #76
    Player
    Malkria's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    114
    Character
    Selina Maimhov
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Zerathor View Post
    It's still 100% sounds like you don't understand what you're doing.
    Wow...no you know what, I don't care anymore. That is all any of you have said, despite not being able to respond with more "well you just move during GCD", which is exactly what using swift and triple cast is about. What exactly am I not understanding? So since that seems to be all anyone can say, continuing to respond and explain myself, only to be told what I am thinking or feeling, is just continued masochism on my part. But now, after being tired of being told I am a 'he' I guess I'm playing the victim card by pointing out that I am a woman.

    Like I said, shout down long enough until the dissenter goes away. So good game "guys", guess that means you win. 9.9
    (1)
    Last edited by Malkria; 05-16-2018 at 12:09 AM.

  7. #77
    Player
    Mahrze's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    796
    Character
    Mahrze Crossner
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Malkria View Post
    Wow...no you know what, I don't care anymore. That is all any of you have said, despite not being able to respond with more "well you just move during GCD", which is exactly what using swift and triple cast is about. What exactly am I not understanding? So since that seems to be all anyone can say, continuing to respond and explain myself, only to be told what I am thinking or feeling, is just continued masochism on my part. But now, after being tired of being told I am a 'he' I guess I'm playing the victim card by pointing out that I am a woman.

    Like I said, shout down long enough until the dissenter goes away. So good game "guys", guess that means you win. 9.9
    I understand where you come from and its one of the quirks of BLM, and your train of thought on it is not different to what I have seen or thought some times. But BLM is in the unique spot of having to play with the slide-cast gimmick the players have encouraged and SE not showing any change to that, even though people would expect differently since its the (supposed) main job the producer plays.

    I don't want do discourage discussion, but I can tell you that whatever you see in this game, you're better of saying: "it is what it is" even though, like you've pointed out, you'd like to see some of these things fixed and you don't consider you're the only one in that spot.
    (1)
    If you say so.

  8. #78
    Player
    Zerathor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    441
    Character
    Jack Cinder
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Black Mage Lv 80
    It's the planning aspect you don't quite get.
    Blm does suffer from downtime fights, but it can be mitigated by proper use of your resources. Knowing when to cut your cycle short because you won't get to use a full mp bar anyway, forcing a f3p with sharp to get straight back to astral fire 3 after transposing and waiting, using triple cast/swift to start back up after downtime. There's various ways to set yourself up so that downtime in fights won't effect you as harshly, and almost become unnoticeable. The buff to proc duration in 4.2 greatly assisted that option, by allowing you to better hold procs for mobility rather than hastily spend them like other jobs, and also the transpose cd reduction. Blm has options on their proc usage for comfort rather than raw gain.

    Adjust to the playstyle more and it becomes easier and more rewarding to properly utilize all the tools at your disposal. All jobs have unique quirks to assist them in different boss fights, but blm is one of the few jobs that NEEDS to learn them. It has one of the highest gaps from the skill floor to the ceiling, and that's not a bad thing, it just needs to be respected.

    And there's a difference between correcting somebody by saying you're a woman once, and harping on it after every post to imply we're bullying you for it. It's not relevant to anybody's point and it just looks bad on your part to make appeal to emotion a core part of your argument. Nobody really gives a damn about that.
    (2)
    Last edited by Zerathor; 05-16-2018 at 12:49 AM.

  9. #79
    Player
    Kabooa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    4,391
    Character
    Jace Ossura
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Goldsmith Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Malkria View Post
    I guess I'm playing the victim card by pointing out that I am a woman.

    Like I said, shout down long enough until the dissenter goes away. So good game "guys", guess that means you win. 9.9
    A) Irrelevant.

    B) Fine, I'll go through your original post point by point. I like to consider myself a pretty dang good Black Mage, not quite on Sfia's level, but enough to address this.

    Edit: FORMATTING

    Quote Originally Posted by Malkria View Post
    Ok I started out loving the black mage, but apparently was playing 'over geared' or something since now that I've hit mid-sixty range the job...just kind of sucks. The cast times I could live with, the need to switch between fire and ice is fine, but the timer...just kills it. With base gear you MAYBE can get three fire fours out before you need to toss a quick fire one or switch stances. But with the sheer amount of moving involved not only does the black mage have to work the hardest of all the classes to do damage but whether or not you do the mechanics you get screwed out of a lot of fights.
    Gear scales in this game. You will never hit the point of natural spellspeed where Fire 1 isn't required, as that requires a near 1.8 cast time on Fire 4 at all times, which is about 35% spell speed. Currently your highest natural gear you can get is 14%.

    Every job suffers from mechanics, some just suffer a little more. Black Mage and Monk have the shortest, but Black Mage doesn't require a target or any other conditional to keep theirs. If a Monk has to run out of melee at a bad time, they're forced to either eat a hit (not ideal) or risk killing someone with said mechanic. Black Mage hits transpose. It's not a punishment to prevent the worst case scenario.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malkria View Post
    Take the ruby sea dungeon. The first boss isn't to bad, you just need to avoid the water drops from the add and placement can make it easy to take it out. But the second boss has two mechanics. One with he eruption that makes you have to run and thus probably lose your timer, and the second with seduce which again will probably make you lose your timer. The final boss is similar, with long phases where you can't attack anything, and thus lose your timer.
    Swift cast, sharp cast, good use of Thunder procs. Transpose on the last boss if you have to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malkria View Post
    Frankly I don't even think you need major changes to make the job not feel so bad to play. First off the ley-lines could be a buff for going through a full ice-fire switch with full charges and every time you switch after that it resets. Second, having you lose complete charges feels to heavy handed. But having you lose a charge when the timer runs out every three seconds would give enough breathing room to the timer while better allowing the job to do mechanics without losing all momentum.
    Leylines is currently one of the only abilities in the game that actively changes your behavior. We need more of these, not less, as currently many abilities you simply spam on cooldown (Attack oriented ones) or mash during burst windows (Buff oriented ones). Leylines requires spatial forethought as well as minimizing the impact random aoes can have on it (Such as standing on the edge so the aoe doesn't cover the whole thing. Move to the other end. Easy street)

    AF's timers and the conflict it has with the mechanics thrown at you is like, the main attraction when dealing with Black Mage. Loosening up this particular part of the Job makes it intrinsically less interesting. Easier, but less interesting. AF/UI timers aren't hard to keep so long as you keep your Spellspeed in mind and what it allows you to abuse. There is nothing more satisfying than skirting the timer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malkria View Post
    I like the job itself and the power it brings, but it isn't the top DPS and it's mechanics seem to but heads with the dungeon/raid design of the entire game. With those combined the question should be how to make the black mage better fit into the game, because right now the RDM is more fun to play even if it doesn't hit as hard simply because it feels better suited tot he game at large then the supposed heavy hitter black mage is.
    Red Mage is also considered one of the least valuable jobs because you have fewer opportunities to excel. The Black Mage may not feel, at first handle, as good as a Red Mage in most content, but a Black Mage is one of the most satisfying jobs to optimize precisely because it's harder to handle. Split second proc management, knowing when you can be greedy, knowing when you can dump your leylines, knowing when you don't have to run out, abusing every timer you have.

    That's the job. That's what makes it great. The simple rotation and mechanics are deceptive in this mastery because it's 'easy' to be okay at Black Mage, but very hard to be very good at it. If it's not for you, there's no shame in that.
    (7)
    Last edited by Kabooa; 05-16-2018 at 01:01 AM.

  10. #80
    Player
    EllieShadeflare's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    332
    Character
    Elatus Shadeflare
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Black Mage Lv 80
    Ignored the forums for a while, and THIS is what I see? Welp, gonna take on a few points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malkria View Post
    Well according to a lot of people in this thread everything about the BLM is fine...except if you go back in the forums history you will see a LOT of people who apparently find various aspects of the job needing to be fixed. So...apparently I have a leg to stand on here, and you and your patrization can go somewhere else yourself.
    Except those were about things that have been subsequently fixed. At the start of SB, we were absolutely terrible unless you forget about our new mechanics and just use the old Heavensward rotation of 4x Fire IV since our new 6x rotation was not built with 3s cast times in mind. Then it was reduced to 2.8s. We pointed out that we still lost damage (between Fire IV's nerf from its original base potency 280 in HW and Raging Strikes being gone) despite the new inclusion of Foul... and that too got somewhat fixed by bringing Fire IV back to 280 base potency. Issues of mobility have been acknowledged, and the dev team is working on them, between the enhancements to our proc timers or the buffs to Aetherial Manipulation (believe it or not, before Stormblood, AM was a whopping 180 timer! Stormblood made it 35s, and then 4.2 made it 10s!) and Transpose. Heck, 4.3 is going to add more buffs to our teleports to make them more useful!

    Quote Originally Posted by Malkria View Post
    Ah yes, the "you just don't like it because you don't understand the nuances...so let me get this straight. The job is supposed to be a 'turret' with a very simple rotation, so what nuance am I missing? Just because I don't like the movement of the system does not mean I don't get the 'deep and nuanced aspects of the job'...it means I feel the job can be a turret while not having to rely on GCD gaps for movement.
    I mean... there's Slidecasting. At the last little bit of your cast time, you can move and complete your cast. So there's that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malkria View Post
    You can either claim it's a simple turret job with a simple rotation, or you can claim there is a deep nuanced system I'm not getting. But trying to argue both is frankly insulting to both of us, you for not making a better argument and me for your thinking i'm stupid enough to buy said argument.
    The simplicity is our rotation and our "identity". The nuance comes from navigating that identity and rotation around the fact the game wants to be more mobile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malkria View Post
    Can you point to the official line that describes the BLM as a 'turret job'?
    No official line, certainly, but perhaps the fact that none of its attack abilities exist off of the global cooldown, and even its instant casts are still on the global cooldown could be a good indication. Also, Leylines. Leylines is a thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malkria View Post
    Sounds to me that the detractors in this thread can't be bothered to argue why the job is fine as it is when better options exist. But hey, I'm on the internet so I guess it's my fault for thinking people actually try to use logic to convince each other...I keep forgetting the preferred method is shout the other person down as a group, make them a strawman, and put intent and words in front of what they actually are saying. Silly me, guess I better get going before someone tells me to get back in the kitchen or some other stupid shit next.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malkria View Post
    Wow...no you know what, I don't care anymore. That is all any of you have said, despite not being able to respond with more "well you just move during GCD", which is exactly what using swift and triple cast is about. What exactly am I not understanding? So since that seems to be all anyone can say, continuing to respond and explain myself, only to be told what I am thinking or feeling, is just continued masochism on my part. But now, after being tired of being told I am a 'he' I guess I'm playing the victim card by pointing out that I am a woman.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malkria View Post
    Like I said, shout down long enough until the dissenter goes away. So good game "guys", guess that means you win. 9.9
    Aaaaaaand this is the point where you showcase that you had no intention of arguing honestly. Like. At all. I'm not sure if anyone else has told you what slidecasting is (I explained it in this post) but complaining that nobody is listening to you because they refute your points is just... Just... sad.

    People know the job is fine because:

    A. They know that BLM is rather mistake friendly despite its almost unfitting design choices in such a mobile MMO

    B. They know that BLM is top of the charts in damage, even on the 75th percentile

    C. Black Mage got and gets the buffs it needs to survive

    D. Black Mage isn't Red Mage

    E. Only Summoner can match our raw damage.

    F. Other classes have different playstyles that may have more reliance on irrelevant buttons or overly high attention to your mechanics, but Black Mage mostly just has to focus on the game and its timer. Their rotation is simple, yes, but the trouble is manipulating their rotation around the movement and chaos of FFXIV. And that's not even that hard.

    You came into this wanting to complain about how bad you thought Black Mage was. When people told you it wasn't the garbage heap you thought it was, you started to complain that people were attacking you and refusing to listen to you. People have listened. They simply don't agree with you, and trying to ACT like a victim (which you claim you aren't, but you lose THAT argument by saying things like "shout down long enough until the dissenter leaves", saying people are strawmannning you without evidence, and even attempting to use MISOGYNY as an excuse to be dishonest (low blow. Low blow.)) just makes you look more and more dishonest.

    This is something I have issue with myself, but part of having arguments and discussions on the internet is understanding that people WILL disagree with you. And WILL keep their opinions rather stubbornly. However, assuming you're entirely right and your opponents are entirely wrong from start to finish will NEVER help you. When forming your arguments, you can't keep to the same hill you're fighting on, unless you've actually examined the other hill and realized "oh hey, no, their hill is a bad one, it has too much mud".
    (5)

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