Black magic...kinda sucks

[Malkria]

This post completely misses the point of BLM. BLM's identity is "Turret DPS", and this post is written with a failure to recognise this identity.

No I recognize the job and it's intent, but the fact remains that it's intent goes agaisnt the design decision of the game. Yes you can 'know the fight well'...but that just means you have to put in twice as much work as the other jobs to do even half decent DPS. While you might find this rewarding, this is still a fact of the situation and a reason most people prefer the RDM and SMN over the BLM. Yes it is turret dps, and yes it is functional...but that doesn't change the fact that it's both rather mediocre to play AND goes against the high mobility that most fights call for.

Not enjoying the job because of the timer is perfectly fine, but it in no way kills the job. Every other BLM player can make the timer work with their playstyle. The fact that you can't just highlights the subjectivity in this post.

No, every other black mage who decided to STICK WITH black mage makes this work, and from what I understand the job gets MUCH easier to play once you max the crafting, slot in max spell speed, and know the fights. But you know what I need to play RDM or SMN as a magic dps? Decent gear and just knowing the basics of the class. I don't need to max out my gear, crafting, or memorize every mechanic I can eat vs needing to dodge.

So if my stance is subjective, your stance is...well since I can't think of any diplomatic way of putting it, i'll move on.

The current Ley Lines is such a fantastic skill that accentuates this playstyle. It rewards people knowing the fight well and planning out it's usage. Removing it just ruins a layer of skill from a job that has already been heavily trimmed down since HW.

The second change, I don't understand well. Are you suggesting you lose a stack every 3 seconds instead of losing all stacks after 12 seconds? That would 100% kill the job.

First off, how would stack degradation vs outright removal "100% kill the job"? Now who is being 'subjective'? Second Ley lines are not the best thing ever since 90% of the time it seems the game wants to target any aoe on your position as soon as you lay one, I might be paranoid but it almost feels like an algorithm in the game. Much like how some attacks will only go after DPS and not the healer.

Ley lines first off are not that powerful, at best I get another fire 4 off before having to cast fire 1 to reset my timer. Now this might bet better with more spell speed, but that just highlights all the issues the job has.

It literally is top DPS. This is just misinformed.

No, it isn't. SMN can easily outpace a BLM in most fights. Plenty of analysis of that. Yes in perfect conditions a BLM can do more damage, but most fights don't allow for that. The SMN can just naturally do more then the BLM who has to work twice as hard to match let alone surpass their damage.

[QUOTE=Popotato;4669183BLM does fit into the game. Naturally, a job that wants to stand still will be challenged to overcome mechanics, but using that logic to say it doesn't fit into the game is like saying melee DPS don't fit into the game because they sometimes have to go far away from the boss to do mechanics . [/QUOTE]

First off, again look at all the requirements to play the class well: You need to memorize the fights and mechanics, you need to max out crafting so you can max out spell speed, you need to have perfect rotations to maximize your DPS, you also have the penalty that if you mess up your DPS comes to a screeching halt. NO OTHER JOB HAS THIS MANY REQUIREMENTS! Even more, a decent SMN can still outpace most BLM.

You can sit there and claim that I'm just mad because I don't know the job. Thing is, I do know the job, and yes triple cast is nice but it still doesn't change ANY of the issues I presented. Do I next need to max out my crafting and memorize all the fights before my opinion becomes valid?

[Malkria]

This about sums it up.

The only point in your entire post that I'll agree with, is that Summoner is a bit too close in terms of DPS for the utility and mobility it provides. As for the rest, part of the fun of BLM is the challenge and thrill of finding a way to manage mechanics while pushing max dps. You not liking BLM doesn't mean the job is broken.

I never said it was broken, I said it isn't fun to play and doesn't mesh well with the basic game design of the game. You can have a turret DPS playstyle that does a better job of meshing with said design then what we have currently, and it has been done in other games better.

[GunksFoy]

Snip

Fine, let me rephrase. Just because you don't like the job, doesn't mean it "sucks". Tons of people love to play it, myself included, and enjoy the challenge.


As for your other post, if you think that you don't need to know fights for the other jobs to be effective, you are sadly mistaken and clearly not playing to the best of your ability. Yes, BLM is somewhat more punishing if you don't know the fight, although not much different than Dragoon or Monk. Less so considering you can maintain stacks/enochian/foul indefinitely.

Also, you definitely don't need to max out the crafting classes. i370 gear is still the best and can be melded, 360 gear can also be melded, there is the i350 relic gear with 5 slots to meld, and you can buy crafted gear. This is a silly point. Not to mention a max SS build isn't even necessarily BiS. IIRC, the best build is 1930 SS and max crit.

Go look at FFlogs and tell me that Summoner does more DPS. As I said before, Black Mage could use a little bit more of a boost to compensate for the lack of utility, but BLM is the top DPS right now.

Stack degredation is not going to happen. I don't know that it would kill the job, but the way you described it is ludicrous. Lose a stack every 3 seconds? So we would literally never use Fire 4. If you meant 13 seconds, as in when the AF/UI timer ends, that could be a bit different. However, considering Transpose, this seems silly and unnecessary. Lastly, Ley Lines is a huge increase to DPS. It allows you to squeeze extra F4s, Foul in your AF rotation, TC procs anytime you have them. Ley Lines is very versatile and extremely crucial to the way BLM works.

TL;DR: if you don't like BLM, go play something else and stop trying to ruin it for the people who enjoy it.

[Popotato]

No I recognize the job and it's intent, but the fact remains that it's intent goes agaisnt the design decision of the game. Yes you can 'know the fight well'...but that just means you have to put in twice as much work as the other jobs to do even half decent DPS. While you might find this rewarding, this is still a fact of the situation and a reason most people prefer the RDM and SMN over the BLM. Yes it is turret dps, and yes it is functional...but that doesn't change the fact that it's both rather mediocre to play AND goes against the high mobility that most fights call for.

Completely subjective. Just because you aren't prepared to put in the work you are meant to for a fight doesn't mean other people aren't either. All jobs need a good deal of fight knowledge, and those that play BLM have to put in more. But those BLM players are perfectly fine with that because they like that planned playstyle. If you personally aren't fine with that, then once again, this probably isn't your ideal job.

No, every other black mage who decided to STICK WITH black mage makes this work, and from what I understand the job gets MUCH easier to play once you max the crafting, slot in max spell speed, and know the fights. But you know what I need to play RDM or SMN as a magic dps? Decent gear and just knowing the basics of the class. I don't need to max out my gear, crafting, or memorize every mechanic I can eat vs needing to dodge.

Once again, misinformed. Spell Speed isn't mandatory, Spell Speed is melded based on taste. A crit build is equally, if not more viable. This is especially true if you're using the Flare rotation. But really though, at the level you are playing BLM, the mandatory melds for any job are... none. Any job is perfectly functional at a casual level with absolutely no melding. If you feel like you struggling with the job is simply a matter of not having spell speed, then prepare yourself for disappointment once you do meld it.

Also, I don’t understand why you emphasised, “stick with the job.” If they stuck with the job, then they like the playstyle. And just because you don’t like the job, the people that stuck with the job because they enjoy it aren’t allowed to keep the play style they love?

You don’t have to like every job. If you don’t like a job, you aren’t forced to play it.

So if my stance is subjective, your stance is...well since I can't think of any diplomatic way of putting it, i'll move on.

You are a level 65 BLM who's struggling with the job in Shisui of the Violet Tides, and have been prompted to make a post on how the job isn't to your tastes. All posts on this forums will have a level of subjectivity, but some are more subjective and misinformed than others.

First off, how would stack degradation vs outright removal "100% kill the job"? Now who is being 'subjective'? Second Ley lines are not the best thing ever since 90% of the time it seems the game wants to target any aoe on your position as soon as you lay one, I might be paranoid but it almost feels like an algorithm in the game. Much like how some attacks will only go after DPS and not the healer.

Like I said originally, I wasn't quite sure how you wanted to implement the stack degradation, but based on the way I understood it, I hope you know that Fire IV doesn't refresh the AF timer or increase the stacks, and AF stacks increase the potency of fire based spells. If it degraded every 3 seconds, you would either be using Fire every second spell to stay at AF3, or using Fire IV with a lower potency since it wouldn't be at 3 stacks, and then having to use a higher cost and longer cast time Fire III to go back to 3 stacks. Objectively, no matter how you spin it, that would be lower damage than what it is now.

Ley lines first off are not that powerful, at best I get another fire 4 off before having to cast fire 1 to reset my timer. Now this might bet better with more spell speed, but that just highlights all the issues the job has.

Once again, completely missing the point. Spell Speed is not about fitting an extra spell under Astral Fire, that does hardly anything for a BLM. It's about fitting more spells into an entire fight. BLM has an infinite resource pool. The only thing that stops a BLM's rotation is when the fight ends. Therefore, before the fight ends, you want to use as many spells as possible, and Spell Speed helps with that. One reason why RDM and SMN and just about any other DPS job doesn't want spell/skill speed is that they don't have infinite resource pools. It can also mess with timings oGCD timings, such as with MCH, but that doesn't apply at all to BLM. Once again though, Crit is just as viable as spell speed.

No, it isn't. SMN can easily outpace a BLM in most fights. Plenty of analysis of that. Yes in perfect conditions a BLM can do more damage, but most fights don't allow for that. The SMN can just naturally do more then the BLM who has to work twice as hard to match let alone surpass their damage.

I double checked FFLogs to make sure. BLM out damages SMN at all percentiles in fights where there is only a single target. This includes God Kefka, a movement-heavy fight. Fights where there are adds or multiple enemies, SMN wins out since it has superior AoE and can use multi-DoTing to inflate their DPS. In fights where such heavy inflation isn't possible, BLM does more damage.

First off, again look at all the requirements to play the class well: You need to memorize the fights and mechanics, you need to max out crafting so you can max out spell speed, you need to have perfect rotations to maximize your DPS, you also have the penalty that if you mess up your DPS comes to a screeching halt. NO OTHER JOB HAS THIS MANY REQUIREMENTS! Even more, a decent SMN can still outpace most BLM.

Every job needs to learn the fight to optimise, and that is no fault of the job. You don't need to be a crafter to meld Spell Speed or Crit or anything for that matter. Any job needs a perfect rotation to maximise DPS, and if anything BLM has one of the easiest rotations to remember, and the challenge is applying it to a fight (which once again, is not a fault of the job, it's a part of it's identity).

The last point though, just reeks of misinformation. If you drop your AF/UI, you just use Blizzard 3 and pick up where you left off. Since you have an infinite mana pool, if you die, you aren't forced to manage low resources. BLM has a very low penalty for death or mistakes, probably the lowest in the game. The job you've been comparing it to this entire time, SMN, has by far the worst recovery from a mistake or death. You lose up to 2 minutes of progress, your mana stays low if you don't have Lucid Dreaming, and half of that mana is dedicated to your pet. You have to wait for your cooldowns to realign. BLM has one of the lowest penalties for a mistake in the game.

You can sit there and claim that I'm just mad because I don't know the job. Thing is, I do know the job, and yes triple cast is nice but it still doesn't change ANY of the issues I presented. Do I next need to max out my crafting and memorize all the fights before my opinion becomes valid?

Saying Triplecast doesn't change anything just makes it really obvious you haven't unlocked it yet.

I don't know what your obsession with maxing out crafters is. Go to my profile and look at my crafters. I can play BLM without any problems.

The least you can do before you comment on a job's balance is to play it at level 70. You haven't even mentioned Polyglot in any post yet. You can criticise BLM's leveling experience, that's fine and you have more than enough merit to do that. But right now, you're complaining about the job based on your struggles in Shisui of the Violet Tides. That just shows inexperience with the job and an inability to control the job's kit, and that makes it difficult for most people to take your criticisms as valid.

[Maero]

You just need to give it time and get to level 70, if it is still not for you just move on
Blm is one of the top dps for almost all content and having to know a fight and pre-plan is what makes the job more unique i think.
Other jobs you can just wing it but is then dull.

You do not yet have the experience with blm so please stop trying to tell everyone how bad the job is and try to re-inforce your point with innacurate information

[Malkria]

Completely subjective. Just because you aren't prepared to put in the work you are meant to for a fight doesn't mean other people aren't either. All jobs need a good deal of fight knowledge, and those that play BLM have to put in more. But those BLM players are perfectly fine with that because they like that planned playstyle. If you personally aren't fine with that, then once again, this probably isn't your ideal job.

While knowing a fight is something everyone should get, I seem to do just fun with EVERY OTHER JOB and in playing comfortably around the mechanics. Even with jobs I don't like like the archer/bard. Black mage is the only job where I am ACUTELY aware of the lack of mobility every single second. While that may be something you can overlook...there are only three casters and last I checked the black mage is the least popular.

So you have a caster that requires you memorize fights to a degree higher then any other job/role and who still barely beats out the other casters? Yeah...guess that isn't the job for me. I prefer actual fun jobs that don't screw me over for a single misstep.

You are a level 65 BLM who's struggling with the job in Shisui of the Violet Tides...

First off, I pointed out the fight because it was case in point FOR my point. That mechanics frequently cause timers to drop on BLM. I have been running the dungeons back to back since it is the fastest way to level, and speaking of which I have gotten past 65. Funny how that happens when someone is leveling a job.

Oh, and yes triple cast is again not really that great. Yes I earned it, and yes I don't feel it does much to alleviate any of what I see are issues with the job.

Like I said originally, I wasn't quite sure how you wanted to implement the stack degradation, but based on the way I understood it, I hope you know that Fire IV doesn't refresh the AF timer or increase the stacks, and AF stacks increase the potency of fire based spells. If it degraded every 3 seconds, you would either be using Fire every second spell to stay at AF3, or using Fire IV with a lower potency since it wouldn't be at 3 stacks, and then having to use a higher cost and longer cast time Fire III to go back to 3 stacks. Objectively, no matter how you spin it, that would be lower damage than what it is now.

...Thus proving that you are so blind to defend this job that you didn't really think about what I was suggesting. Of course that would be stupid like how you described it, and nobody would reasonably want that.

The way I was suggesting the degradation occur was that at the end of the timer, as it is now, you lose one stack then the others on three second timers. Thus you effectively extend the timer by six seconds for mechanics and those still learning the class while preserving the full power for those who have mastered it. Without driving the dps of the job into a brick wall as soon as the timer runs out. That way those who mastered the class still keep that mechanic as is, but while making the job slightly more forgiving for those still learning it, and thus a little more appealing.

Again, my point is not that the job is broken but that it doesn't mesh well with the current design. That AGAIN isn't to say that the job isn't playable. But 'playable' isn't the same as 'good' or 'well designed'. For a class that is the epitome of a basic rotation made incarnate, it's rather lackluster overall. If the only thing that makes it really playable is memorizing fights...that in itself is rather telling at how bad the basic design.

I would respond to the rest...but there is only so many times I will respond to someone who just chops up another's post like some sort of YouTube reply video.

[Malkria]

You just need to give it time and get to level 70, if it is still not for you just move on
Blm is one of the top dps for almost all content and having to know a fight and pre-plan is what makes the job more unique i think.
Other jobs you can just wing it but is then dull.

You do not yet have the experience with blm so please stop trying to tell everyone how bad the job is and try to re-inforce your point with innacurate information

The thing is once you get to 60+ you pretty much are playing the job, and BLM is very much the perfect example of this. Yes you get the teleport back to your ley lines, triple cast, and the ultimate damage spell slash reward for staying in good rotation with your fire/ice spells; but explain to me how much different the job gets at 70 vs my current 67 let alone from 60? Not to mention while I have not reached 70 in BLM I have played plenty of the jobs as is, and I have been playing mmos long enough to know a bad design when I see it. Read that 'bad design', not broken or unplayable...just bad. You can still play a bad game and enjoy it, even master it, but it doesn't change the fact that the BLM could be done better and in fact HAS been done better in other games.

What you call 'winging-it' is what other call 'playing the game'. If anything is really 'winging-it' it is a healer since no two runs will go the same with how you need to play the mechanics and respond to those who didn't; which the whole mentality of eating mechanics to increase DPS...if that isn't against design philosophy of the game in general, I don't know what is. When you have a job that has some of the lowest health that the community is telling you is being played correctly by playing russian roulette with mechanics...I feel very much I am not the one who needs to better understand game design.

[Kabooa]

The only problem Black Mages have is that everyone else is taking our jerbs.

[Rhus]

The addition of triple cast and foul do add a bit of vairence to your rotation and involve a bit more juggling be done. You don't really notice how much until you've ran 70s a lot and suddenly do levelling and get dropped into bardems or castrum for example and don't have those skills.
You're like ... oh I know what I can do here... nope synced out lol
I would say if you've not enjoyed it up to now getting those last 3 skills probably won't change it for you though. Might add a little more salt and pepper to the steak but considering you like it rare and this is well done no amount of salt and pepper (seal) is going to make you like that steak.

[P_Wing]

I would like to tell you that BLM is the reason I'm still playing this game and I love the design, even more so now that we got a lot of movement skills during 60-70.
I tried other jobs and don't feel so natural like BLM. You get insane DPS when you can stand still and cast (and by insane I mean I've nearly never seen anyone not BLM doing more DPS than me, not counting raid contribution of course).

Before 60 yes it's quite hard to move without losing DPS, but at 70, you have
Triplecast: Let you freely move for ~7s every 60s
Swiftcast: Let you freely move for ~2s every 60s
These two alone let you move 1/6 of the time already.

Then you also have
Thunder proc: freely move for ~2s.
Fire3 proc: freely move for ~2s.
Fire3/Bliz3 change phase: freely move for ~1s enough to get out of most AoEs.
Aetherial Manipulation: freely move to your friend (I found that at least one will be out of AoE).

Regarding learning the fight: I find out that it's only required for EX Primals and Savage fights (which you do while learning the mechanics anyway so it doesn't feel like more problems than any other classes). For other dungeons, just improvising BLM kits is totally fine and you don't really need to absorb any AoEs either.

My advice is like the others. Get him to 70 and play for a while, if you like him you'll like him.
If not then maybe BLM is not the class for you and you can try some other classes. No every class is for everyone I guess (like how I can't get myself to love melee classes XD)