Black magic...kinda sucks

[Malkria]

This post completely misses the point of BLM. BLM's identity is "Turret DPS", and this post is written with a failure to recognise this identity.

No I recognize the job and it's intent, but the fact remains that it's intent goes agaisnt the design decision of the game. Yes you can 'know the fight well'...but that just means you have to put in twice as much work as the other jobs to do even half decent DPS. While you might find this rewarding, this is still a fact of the situation and a reason most people prefer the RDM and SMN over the BLM. Yes it is turret dps, and yes it is functional...but that doesn't change the fact that it's both rather mediocre to play AND goes against the high mobility that most fights call for.

Not enjoying the job because of the timer is perfectly fine, but it in no way kills the job. Every other BLM player can make the timer work with their playstyle. The fact that you can't just highlights the subjectivity in this post.

No, every other black mage who decided to STICK WITH black mage makes this work, and from what I understand the job gets MUCH easier to play once you max the crafting, slot in max spell speed, and know the fights. But you know what I need to play RDM or SMN as a magic dps? Decent gear and just knowing the basics of the class. I don't need to max out my gear, crafting, or memorize every mechanic I can eat vs needing to dodge.

So if my stance is subjective, your stance is...well since I can't think of any diplomatic way of putting it, i'll move on.

The current Ley Lines is such a fantastic skill that accentuates this playstyle. It rewards people knowing the fight well and planning out it's usage. Removing it just ruins a layer of skill from a job that has already been heavily trimmed down since HW.

The second change, I don't understand well. Are you suggesting you lose a stack every 3 seconds instead of losing all stacks after 12 seconds? That would 100% kill the job.

First off, how would stack degradation vs outright removal "100% kill the job"? Now who is being 'subjective'? Second Ley lines are not the best thing ever since 90% of the time it seems the game wants to target any aoe on your position as soon as you lay one, I might be paranoid but it almost feels like an algorithm in the game. Much like how some attacks will only go after DPS and not the healer.

Ley lines first off are not that powerful, at best I get another fire 4 off before having to cast fire 1 to reset my timer. Now this might bet better with more spell speed, but that just highlights all the issues the job has.

It literally is top DPS. This is just misinformed.

No, it isn't. SMN can easily outpace a BLM in most fights. Plenty of analysis of that. Yes in perfect conditions a BLM can do more damage, but most fights don't allow for that. The SMN can just naturally do more then the BLM who has to work twice as hard to match let alone surpass their damage.

[QUOTE=Popotato;4669183BLM does fit into the game. Naturally, a job that wants to stand still will be challenged to overcome mechanics, but using that logic to say it doesn't fit into the game is like saying melee DPS don't fit into the game because they sometimes have to go far away from the boss to do mechanics . [/QUOTE]

First off, again look at all the requirements to play the class well: You need to memorize the fights and mechanics, you need to max out crafting so you can max out spell speed, you need to have perfect rotations to maximize your DPS, you also have the penalty that if you mess up your DPS comes to a screeching halt. NO OTHER JOB HAS THIS MANY REQUIREMENTS! Even more, a decent SMN can still outpace most BLM.

You can sit there and claim that I'm just mad because I don't know the job. Thing is, I do know the job, and yes triple cast is nice but it still doesn't change ANY of the issues I presented. Do I next need to max out my crafting and memorize all the fights before my opinion becomes valid?

[Popotato]

No I recognize the job and it's intent, but the fact remains that it's intent goes agaisnt the design decision of the game. Yes you can 'know the fight well'...but that just means you have to put in twice as much work as the other jobs to do even half decent DPS. While you might find this rewarding, this is still a fact of the situation and a reason most people prefer the RDM and SMN over the BLM. Yes it is turret dps, and yes it is functional...but that doesn't change the fact that it's both rather mediocre to play AND goes against the high mobility that most fights call for.

Completely subjective. Just because you aren't prepared to put in the work you are meant to for a fight doesn't mean other people aren't either. All jobs need a good deal of fight knowledge, and those that play BLM have to put in more. But those BLM players are perfectly fine with that because they like that planned playstyle. If you personally aren't fine with that, then once again, this probably isn't your ideal job.

No, every other black mage who decided to STICK WITH black mage makes this work, and from what I understand the job gets MUCH easier to play once you max the crafting, slot in max spell speed, and know the fights. But you know what I need to play RDM or SMN as a magic dps? Decent gear and just knowing the basics of the class. I don't need to max out my gear, crafting, or memorize every mechanic I can eat vs needing to dodge.

Once again, misinformed. Spell Speed isn't mandatory, Spell Speed is melded based on taste. A crit build is equally, if not more viable. This is especially true if you're using the Flare rotation. But really though, at the level you are playing BLM, the mandatory melds for any job are... none. Any job is perfectly functional at a casual level with absolutely no melding. If you feel like you struggling with the job is simply a matter of not having spell speed, then prepare yourself for disappointment once you do meld it.

Also, I don’t understand why you emphasised, “stick with the job.” If they stuck with the job, then they like the playstyle. And just because you don’t like the job, the people that stuck with the job because they enjoy it aren’t allowed to keep the play style they love?

You don’t have to like every job. If you don’t like a job, you aren’t forced to play it.

So if my stance is subjective, your stance is...well since I can't think of any diplomatic way of putting it, i'll move on.

You are a level 65 BLM who's struggling with the job in Shisui of the Violet Tides, and have been prompted to make a post on how the job isn't to your tastes. All posts on this forums will have a level of subjectivity, but some are more subjective and misinformed than others.

First off, how would stack degradation vs outright removal "100% kill the job"? Now who is being 'subjective'? Second Ley lines are not the best thing ever since 90% of the time it seems the game wants to target any aoe on your position as soon as you lay one, I might be paranoid but it almost feels like an algorithm in the game. Much like how some attacks will only go after DPS and not the healer.

Like I said originally, I wasn't quite sure how you wanted to implement the stack degradation, but based on the way I understood it, I hope you know that Fire IV doesn't refresh the AF timer or increase the stacks, and AF stacks increase the potency of fire based spells. If it degraded every 3 seconds, you would either be using Fire every second spell to stay at AF3, or using Fire IV with a lower potency since it wouldn't be at 3 stacks, and then having to use a higher cost and longer cast time Fire III to go back to 3 stacks. Objectively, no matter how you spin it, that would be lower damage than what it is now.

Ley lines first off are not that powerful, at best I get another fire 4 off before having to cast fire 1 to reset my timer. Now this might bet better with more spell speed, but that just highlights all the issues the job has.

Once again, completely missing the point. Spell Speed is not about fitting an extra spell under Astral Fire, that does hardly anything for a BLM. It's about fitting more spells into an entire fight. BLM has an infinite resource pool. The only thing that stops a BLM's rotation is when the fight ends. Therefore, before the fight ends, you want to use as many spells as possible, and Spell Speed helps with that. One reason why RDM and SMN and just about any other DPS job doesn't want spell/skill speed is that they don't have infinite resource pools. It can also mess with timings oGCD timings, such as with MCH, but that doesn't apply at all to BLM. Once again though, Crit is just as viable as spell speed.

No, it isn't. SMN can easily outpace a BLM in most fights. Plenty of analysis of that. Yes in perfect conditions a BLM can do more damage, but most fights don't allow for that. The SMN can just naturally do more then the BLM who has to work twice as hard to match let alone surpass their damage.

I double checked FFLogs to make sure. BLM out damages SMN at all percentiles in fights where there is only a single target. This includes God Kefka, a movement-heavy fight. Fights where there are adds or multiple enemies, SMN wins out since it has superior AoE and can use multi-DoTing to inflate their DPS. In fights where such heavy inflation isn't possible, BLM does more damage.

First off, again look at all the requirements to play the class well: You need to memorize the fights and mechanics, you need to max out crafting so you can max out spell speed, you need to have perfect rotations to maximize your DPS, you also have the penalty that if you mess up your DPS comes to a screeching halt. NO OTHER JOB HAS THIS MANY REQUIREMENTS! Even more, a decent SMN can still outpace most BLM.

Every job needs to learn the fight to optimise, and that is no fault of the job. You don't need to be a crafter to meld Spell Speed or Crit or anything for that matter. Any job needs a perfect rotation to maximise DPS, and if anything BLM has one of the easiest rotations to remember, and the challenge is applying it to a fight (which once again, is not a fault of the job, it's a part of it's identity).

The last point though, just reeks of misinformation. If you drop your AF/UI, you just use Blizzard 3 and pick up where you left off. Since you have an infinite mana pool, if you die, you aren't forced to manage low resources. BLM has a very low penalty for death or mistakes, probably the lowest in the game. The job you've been comparing it to this entire time, SMN, has by far the worst recovery from a mistake or death. You lose up to 2 minutes of progress, your mana stays low if you don't have Lucid Dreaming, and half of that mana is dedicated to your pet. You have to wait for your cooldowns to realign. BLM has one of the lowest penalties for a mistake in the game.

You can sit there and claim that I'm just mad because I don't know the job. Thing is, I do know the job, and yes triple cast is nice but it still doesn't change ANY of the issues I presented. Do I next need to max out my crafting and memorize all the fights before my opinion becomes valid?

Saying Triplecast doesn't change anything just makes it really obvious you haven't unlocked it yet.

I don't know what your obsession with maxing out crafters is. Go to my profile and look at my crafters. I can play BLM without any problems.

The least you can do before you comment on a job's balance is to play it at level 70. You haven't even mentioned Polyglot in any post yet. You can criticise BLM's leveling experience, that's fine and you have more than enough merit to do that. But right now, you're complaining about the job based on your struggles in Shisui of the Violet Tides. That just shows inexperience with the job and an inability to control the job's kit, and that makes it difficult for most people to take your criticisms as valid.

[Malkria]

Completely subjective. Just because you aren't prepared to put in the work you are meant to for a fight doesn't mean other people aren't either. All jobs need a good deal of fight knowledge, and those that play BLM have to put in more. But those BLM players are perfectly fine with that because they like that planned playstyle. If you personally aren't fine with that, then once again, this probably isn't your ideal job.

While knowing a fight is something everyone should get, I seem to do just fun with EVERY OTHER JOB and in playing comfortably around the mechanics. Even with jobs I don't like like the archer/bard. Black mage is the only job where I am ACUTELY aware of the lack of mobility every single second. While that may be something you can overlook...there are only three casters and last I checked the black mage is the least popular.

So you have a caster that requires you memorize fights to a degree higher then any other job/role and who still barely beats out the other casters? Yeah...guess that isn't the job for me. I prefer actual fun jobs that don't screw me over for a single misstep.

You are a level 65 BLM who's struggling with the job in Shisui of the Violet Tides...

First off, I pointed out the fight because it was case in point FOR my point. That mechanics frequently cause timers to drop on BLM. I have been running the dungeons back to back since it is the fastest way to level, and speaking of which I have gotten past 65. Funny how that happens when someone is leveling a job.

Oh, and yes triple cast is again not really that great. Yes I earned it, and yes I don't feel it does much to alleviate any of what I see are issues with the job.

Like I said originally, I wasn't quite sure how you wanted to implement the stack degradation, but based on the way I understood it, I hope you know that Fire IV doesn't refresh the AF timer or increase the stacks, and AF stacks increase the potency of fire based spells. If it degraded every 3 seconds, you would either be using Fire every second spell to stay at AF3, or using Fire IV with a lower potency since it wouldn't be at 3 stacks, and then having to use a higher cost and longer cast time Fire III to go back to 3 stacks. Objectively, no matter how you spin it, that would be lower damage than what it is now.

...Thus proving that you are so blind to defend this job that you didn't really think about what I was suggesting. Of course that would be stupid like how you described it, and nobody would reasonably want that.

The way I was suggesting the degradation occur was that at the end of the timer, as it is now, you lose one stack then the others on three second timers. Thus you effectively extend the timer by six seconds for mechanics and those still learning the class while preserving the full power for those who have mastered it. Without driving the dps of the job into a brick wall as soon as the timer runs out. That way those who mastered the class still keep that mechanic as is, but while making the job slightly more forgiving for those still learning it, and thus a little more appealing.

Again, my point is not that the job is broken but that it doesn't mesh well with the current design. That AGAIN isn't to say that the job isn't playable. But 'playable' isn't the same as 'good' or 'well designed'. For a class that is the epitome of a basic rotation made incarnate, it's rather lackluster overall. If the only thing that makes it really playable is memorizing fights...that in itself is rather telling at how bad the basic design.

I would respond to the rest...but there is only so many times I will respond to someone who just chops up another's post like some sort of YouTube reply video.

[GunksFoy]

The way I was suggesting the degradation occur was that at the end of the timer, as it is now, you lose one stack then the others on three second timers. Thus you effectively extend the timer by six seconds for mechanics and those still learning the class while preserving the full power for those who have mastered it. Without driving the dps of the job into a brick wall as soon as the timer runs out. That way those who mastered the class still keep that mechanic as is, but while making the job slightly more forgiving for those still learning it, and thus a little more appealing.

This goes to show you don't understand the job. If you are EVER running out of AF/UI, you're doing it wrong. Transpose has already solved the issue that you are trying to fix here, and in a better way than what you suggest. There is no benefit to having 2 stacks over 1 except a small MP reduction. You already lose the speed buff from being in AF/UI3, so 1 stack vs 2 stacks is pointless. The is challenging, but this is not one of it's issues.

Everything you've posted so far just shows us that you do not understand the job or lack the ability to press Transpose every 8s. That's fine, play something else. But again, stop trying to ruin BLM for those who do enjoy.

[Malkria]

This goes to show you don't understand the job.

Right...I don't understand a job that has one of the most simplistic rotations and play styles in the game. Yes transpose is an option, but at the same time when you are trying to squeeze in every last bit of DPS the server doesn't always register the switch in timer. Like I said, this is the ONLY job that feels like it drives into a brick wall once a timer goes off. There is no 'understanding a job' here, there is no skill needed here, it's if a timer goes off your DPS takes a sudden and immediate nose dive.

Furthermore, how am I trying to ruin BLM for anyone? What have I suggested would ruin the job? Change the play style, maybe get more people to play it, but ruin it? Maybe trying being less elitist. 9.9

No it does not suck in any shape or form. It is in fact, if played right, one of the strongest DPS jobs in the game.

Then everyone I talk to is apparently an idiot? Because I'm being told that BLM not only is NOT the strongest DPS but is also just not fun to play in a lot of my FC and friend's eyes. For a lot of the same reasons I've already talked about (hell it is one of the reasons I picked up the BLM to try it again).

Sorry, but i've spent the time up to 70 now playing the job and...it sucks. YES you have transpose and yes you have some instant cast options. But frankly the rotation is to simple, the mobility to bad, the punishment for making a mistake to severe, and the design over all doesn't mesh with how the game demands you play.

Like I said, I have played many a turret type job/class over the years. I can get behind wanting raw power...and frankly the BLM falls flat in this regard. The fact it is a 'selfish job' and still falls flat only makes it all the sadder.

[Kabooa]

Right...I don't understand a job that has one of the most simplistic rotations and play styles in the game.

Sounds about right.

[Malkria]

Sounds about right.

You know, for a group that seems to think everything is working as intended...you all are very defensive about a single voice giving protest. Or is it that I am NOT the only one pointing these things out? That maybe there might actually be some substance to what I am saying? In which case the way you all are so quick to defend this job despite it's issues becomes apparent. I wonder if you all reacted the same way to these "quality of life" changes that Square put forward in the expansion, and claimed it would kill the job then too?

[Dualgunner]

Then everyone I talk to is apparently an idiot? Because I'm being told that BLM not only is NOT the strongest DPS but is also just not fun to play in a lot of my FC and friend's eyes. For a lot of the same reasons I've already talked about (hell it is one of the reasons I picked up the BLM to try it again).

It depends on the context they said that it's not the strongest DPS. If they're talking meta, yes it is not a meta job. For personal DPS, though, yes it is definitely one of, if not the, most powerful DPS in the game. Don't take my word for it, or your friends', go look at the FFLogs rankings for DPS.

It's clear you dislike the gameplay style. But it is not a bad gameplay style. Move on and find a job you like better.

You know, for a group that seems to think everything is working as intended...you all are very defensive about a single voice giving protest. Or is it that I am NOT the only one pointing these things out?

This forum just likes pointing out when people are wrong. It kills a lot of time because there are a lot of wrong people here.

[Malkria]

This forum just likes pointing out when people are wrong. It kills a lot of time because there are a lot of wrong people here.

Except that it seems that a LOT of people want BLM to either have more versatility, mobility, and/or a more interesting rotation. So I question who is in the 'wrong' here.

It's clear you dislike the gameplay style. But it is not a bad gameplay style. Move on and find a job you like better.

No, it is not that I don't like the play style. I have played, and enjoyed, the turret play style. Even to the point where I played abilities literally called "turret mode". Like I have said, those games do it better, and also design the game AROUND the inclusion of said abilities. To which while I understand that Yoshi likes BLM, the point wasn't ever that the job isn't playable. It's that the job is by far the most punishing for mistakes while not bringing much to the table to justify it.

The job could in so may ways still keep this 'turret style" dps while still having more mobility. Hell in ways that would also potentially make it more group orientated. But the first step is admitting the job stands to gain a lot more then lose if changed at all.

[Thela]

Like I said, I have played many a turret type job/class over the years. I can get behind wanting raw power...and frankly the BLM falls flat in this regard. The fact it is a 'selfish job' and still falls flat only makes it all the sadder.

I'm sorry but what? Sacrifice mobility for raw power is the premise of the job, and it does succeed at exactly that, raw power. I'm not sure how you can claim it falls flat when it does in fact provide the highest DPS in the game when done right.

I don't think anyone here will claim its a flawless job, it does have its flaws, but the things you list are just not accurate. It's fine you don't like the style, but the fact is that it is the highest damage job in the game when done right (for a single target boss fight, which is most of them), so your claims to the contrary are just inaccurate.