Jobs: unconnected and now feeling flat

[Malkria]

See, this is where PoVs clash. On the one hand you are advocating for a degree of depth we were already acquainted with before the SB changes. On the other hand we have people who are replying to you saying that these "perks" would really upset the high end where everything matters (to varying degrees).

Actually, no we didn't have that depth even pre-SB. Depth is....well depth. The role action panel pretty much sums up the issue as it stands now as it did then. You have a certain number of actions that just outweigh all the rest, and a lack of meaningful choice even if you have many options is not depth. To use the car analogy once again, if you have a lamborghini and a pinto in a room and told to choose the one you want to drive, which would you choose? It's the same issue here.

As for class ID, I feel every class now is pretty distinctive except maybe DRK. But the thing is all have their weaknesses, and what you and Rowde aren't getting is that it isn't about putting something on the same level as another, it's about shoring up a weakness. The White mage is just always going to have better single target damage vs the other two healers, and better direct healing. The SCH will always have better sustained damage and preventative shields. The AST will simply be more adaptable with better buffs, but less damage then the other two healers. Unless you went all out crazy with a trait system, that won't change. But my point is...the system isn't trying to do that.

The who point is to reward players for investing time in other classes, and what better way then to give options for shoring up a lacking aspect of your favorite job? Much like in the single player games, if you have a character you like but is lacking in some area, you can shore up that deficiency. Maybe not to the point of another character that is stronger in that area, but enough that the issue isn't as glaring. Much like what might have been possible with such a system and the old paladin. Yes the DRK knight was simply going to be stronger at magic defense, but the point wasn't to ursurp that but to shore up the paladin where it was lacking and that was in it's own magic defense.

The point of customization isn't to make one job into another, and it shouldn't ever be. The point is to either enhance the strengths of a class or to allow someone to diminish a weakness. Or simply to put training wheels on if needed, a trait that could extend effects on players could also maybe extend the timer black mages have for fire or ice spells. Not only would this make the class easier to learn for newbies, but also could diminish the weakness black mages have in their mobility. Summoners and Red mages would still have MUCH better mobility, but the point is that it would make the black mage easier to play in...well most content really. At the same time it would let a player who has mastered the timer to take another option which could augment their play in a different way, such as the theoretical WHM trait that could give the occasional buff where spells don't eat resources.

Except that doesn't do anything to improve the situation. PLD would still have less Magic defense than the other two jobs and if there was fight where Magic Def was an issue, well then it would always be better to take one of the other two tanks with the trait versus a PLD with the same trait.

Which again isn't the point. No system should outright upset what each job is best at, that would not only remove the point of having different jobs but also cause homogenization which would be the exact opposite problem then what we currently have. The point however is that Paladins weren't wanted because their magic defense was to low, and while yes a dark knight with more magic defense would be better, the point is that the dark knight could take somethine else to augment their play while the paladin simply becomes a more feasible option for end-game play.

Even if paladins were not the meta people still played paladins right? They just had a harder time doing their job. Having a trait system wouldn't, and shouldn't, at that point bring the paladin to a dark knight's level, but make it esier for the paladin to do their job. There is always a better option for sure, but the point is that if someone enjoyed the paladin play style over the dark knight's they would now be more viable then they were before. Customization shouldn't be about making a job something it isn't, it should be about augmenting the play style of that job.

There were definitely situations in HW where ppl got excluded from content for not having Provoke. I've seen ppl complain and be vitriolic to Healers w/o Cleric Stance or Swiftcast, but no one actually kicked for not having them. DPS not so much, but I've been in Parties that were organized through PF where the Leader would kick someone and then afterward say that the person they kicked had terrible DPS... possibly because they lacked certain cross class skills.

Again, this isn't about giving actions, it's about giving passives that augment play. A job, and content, should be doable without any augmentation. The point is that the augmentation should be either quality of life, reinforcing a strength, or shoring up a weakness. The difference between the weakness of a tank not having provoke and say shoring up magic defense is that one is vital for a job to DO it's job and the other makes life easier both for the tank and healer. One breaks a job, the other simply makes it more viable.

As for people being elitist, well this is the internet and jerks abound. Just came from a raid where someone was complaining about transexuals for no reason other then to cause a fight. So yes there will be some jerks, and those will stand out. But most people probably won't care as long as you both do your job and content gets done.