Jobs: unconnected and now feeling flat

[Xtrasweettea]

The Final Fantasy franchise practically exists for variety. Every class based FF allows job skill/ability mixing, except this one.

In short (to late) look at any of the FF series that had a job system in the past and you will see a web. [...]

FYI, FF1 and FF3, which were both games that had a class based/job system didn’t allow job skill/ability mixing.

In FF1, you chose four jobs for four-character slots and you were stuck with them until the end of the game. Those jobs could only be upgraded after doing a fetch quest. Even after upgrading those jobs, you couldn’t mix anything.
I
n FF3, you could change classes, but you couldn’t share abilities. The only thing you could “share” were spell pages by swapping someone else’s spell page for another character.

FF5 is the first game in the series where ability mixing was implemented on top of the characters being able to change classes freely.

You can say that FF1 was the base for the class role system, FF3 was the base for being able to freely change classes, and FF5 was the base for all ability mixing.


My point doesn't lessen your arguments and isn't made to do that.

[Talraen]

You're right in that no amount of customization is going to matter in terms of easy content, particularly open world (solo) content. If things got unbalanced enough, it could affect stuff like normal trials and dungeons, but the existence of the duty finder makes it difficult to exclude or require certain classes or builds for day-to-day content. However, lack of balance in high-end content affects everyone, whether you participate in that content or not. Abilities must be balanced for that content or you're going to have serious problems with the endgame community, which is not good for the health of the game.

[Malkria]

You're right in that no amount of customization is going to matter in terms of easy content, particularly open world (solo) content. If things got unbalanced enough, it could affect stuff like normal trials and dungeons, but the existence of the duty finder makes it difficult to exclude or require certain classes or builds for day-to-day content. However, lack of balance in high-end content affects everyone, whether you participate in that content or not. Abilities must be balanced for that content or you're going to have serious problems with the endgame community, which is not good for the health of the game.

So let me get this straight, your argument is that as it stands where classes are ridged and can't be changed that it is better that players can exclude others based on their job...but by improving player customization to where the meta could be shaken up to by allowing the potential of less desirable jobs to potentially have some of their flaws shored up is a bad thing? Because correct me if I'm wrong in Hevensward jobs like the Paladin were good other then they had less magic defense then he other two tanks. So if there had been a trait or way for the paladin to shore up this defect in any way...this would have been bad? Really?

Granted that any such trait could have still been taken by the other two tanks, but the point is that it would have made the paladin a more valid choice. But somehow this would have upset a balance of an entirely PvE focused game? Because right now unless you can explain that you are making this community sound like it is based around exclusion of players and elitism at this point. Which I honestly hope isn't true, and doesn't match most of what I've seen of it.

[Mahrze]

So let me get this straight, your argument is that as it stands where classes are ridged and can't be changed that it is better that players can exclude others based on their job...but by improving player customization to where the meta could be shaken up to by allowing the potential of less desirable jobs to potentially have some of their flaws shored up is a bad thing? Because correct me if I'm wrong in Hevensward jobs like the Paladin were good other then they had less magic defense then he other two tanks. So if there had been a trait or way for the paladin to shore up this defect in any way...this would have been bad? Really?

Granted that any such trait could have still been taken by the other two tanks, but the point is that it would have made the paladin a more valid choice. But somehow this would have upset a balance of an entirely PvE focused game? Because right now unless you can explain that you are making this community sound like it is based around exclusion of players and elitism at this point. Which I honestly hope isn't true, and doesn't match most of what I've seen of it.

See, this is where PoVs clash. On the one hand you are advocating for a degree of depth we were already acquainted with before the SB changes. On the other hand we have people who are replying to you saying that these "perks" would really upset the high end where everything matters (to varying degrees).

Can you see the views now? You're asking to add something that in the long run should have "no value", which is contrary to what a good portion of the community agrees. Certain jobs already have design ID crises (See: ppl v MNK. ppl v WHM, ppl v DRK, etc.) with abilities or traits that overall just get ignored. To a certain number of people you're basically asking for the ability bloat that existed pre-SB (and for some jobs, it still does)

This doesn't detach from another angle: Job IDs, its been clear by the team that they want each job to shine by its own merits. "Disconnecting" them was overall the best thing they did in regards to the cross class issue. There are another set of problems on it but this was a good start. By comparison to your PLD comment, if PLD got something to offset their issue, and WAR and DRK get the same "trait access" the result goes from "PLD is paper tank vs magic" to "PLD is the paper tank v magic, regardless".

Let's not look for outliers, but look and what we had, how it went to what we got and focus more on that it should go to rather than what it should "be".

[Rowde]

Because correct me if I'm wrong in Hevensward jobs like the Paladin were good other then they had less magic defense then he other two tanks. So if there had been a trait or way for the paladin to shore up this defect in any way...this would have been bad? Really?

Granted that any such trait could have still been taken by the other two tanks, but the point is that it would have made the paladin a more valid choice. But somehow this would have upset a balance of an entirely PvE focused game?

Except that doesn't do anything to improve the situation. PLD would still have less Magic defense than the other two jobs and if there was fight where Magic Def was an issue, well then it would always be better to take one of the other two tanks with the trait versus a PLD with the same trait.

Because right now unless you can explain that you are making this community sound like it is based around exclusion of players and elitism at this point. Which I honestly hope isn't true, and doesn't match most of what I've seen of it.

There were definitely situations in HW where ppl got excluded from content for not having Provoke. I've seen ppl complain and be vitriolic to Healers w/o Cleric Stance or Swiftcast, but no one actually kicked for not having them. DPS not so much, but I've been in Parties that were organized through PF where the Leader would kick someone and then afterward say that the person they kicked had terrible DPS... possibly because they lacked certain cross class skills.

The reason you see less of this behavior right now is BECAUSE of the new Role system. The playing field is more even at the moment. But if a trait system like the one you are proposing was introduced it would absolutely lead to a return of more rampant elitism where Raid and PuG groups would require certain trait combos for certain jobs or don't even bother joining.

[Malkria]

See, this is where PoVs clash. On the one hand you are advocating for a degree of depth we were already acquainted with before the SB changes. On the other hand we have people who are replying to you saying that these "perks" would really upset the high end where everything matters (to varying degrees).

Actually, no we didn't have that depth even pre-SB. Depth is....well depth. The role action panel pretty much sums up the issue as it stands now as it did then. You have a certain number of actions that just outweigh all the rest, and a lack of meaningful choice even if you have many options is not depth. To use the car analogy once again, if you have a lamborghini and a pinto in a room and told to choose the one you want to drive, which would you choose? It's the same issue here.

As for class ID, I feel every class now is pretty distinctive except maybe DRK. But the thing is all have their weaknesses, and what you and Rowde aren't getting is that it isn't about putting something on the same level as another, it's about shoring up a weakness. The White mage is just always going to have better single target damage vs the other two healers, and better direct healing. The SCH will always have better sustained damage and preventative shields. The AST will simply be more adaptable with better buffs, but less damage then the other two healers. Unless you went all out crazy with a trait system, that won't change. But my point is...the system isn't trying to do that.

The who point is to reward players for investing time in other classes, and what better way then to give options for shoring up a lacking aspect of your favorite job? Much like in the single player games, if you have a character you like but is lacking in some area, you can shore up that deficiency. Maybe not to the point of another character that is stronger in that area, but enough that the issue isn't as glaring. Much like what might have been possible with such a system and the old paladin. Yes the DRK knight was simply going to be stronger at magic defense, but the point wasn't to ursurp that but to shore up the paladin where it was lacking and that was in it's own magic defense.

The point of customization isn't to make one job into another, and it shouldn't ever be. The point is to either enhance the strengths of a class or to allow someone to diminish a weakness. Or simply to put training wheels on if needed, a trait that could extend effects on players could also maybe extend the timer black mages have for fire or ice spells. Not only would this make the class easier to learn for newbies, but also could diminish the weakness black mages have in their mobility. Summoners and Red mages would still have MUCH better mobility, but the point is that it would make the black mage easier to play in...well most content really. At the same time it would let a player who has mastered the timer to take another option which could augment their play in a different way, such as the theoretical WHM trait that could give the occasional buff where spells don't eat resources.

Except that doesn't do anything to improve the situation. PLD would still have less Magic defense than the other two jobs and if there was fight where Magic Def was an issue, well then it would always be better to take one of the other two tanks with the trait versus a PLD with the same trait.

Which again isn't the point. No system should outright upset what each job is best at, that would not only remove the point of having different jobs but also cause homogenization which would be the exact opposite problem then what we currently have. The point however is that Paladins weren't wanted because their magic defense was to low, and while yes a dark knight with more magic defense would be better, the point is that the dark knight could take somethine else to augment their play while the paladin simply becomes a more feasible option for end-game play.

Even if paladins were not the meta people still played paladins right? They just had a harder time doing their job. Having a trait system wouldn't, and shouldn't, at that point bring the paladin to a dark knight's level, but make it esier for the paladin to do their job. There is always a better option for sure, but the point is that if someone enjoyed the paladin play style over the dark knight's they would now be more viable then they were before. Customization shouldn't be about making a job something it isn't, it should be about augmenting the play style of that job.

There were definitely situations in HW where ppl got excluded from content for not having Provoke. I've seen ppl complain and be vitriolic to Healers w/o Cleric Stance or Swiftcast, but no one actually kicked for not having them. DPS not so much, but I've been in Parties that were organized through PF where the Leader would kick someone and then afterward say that the person they kicked had terrible DPS... possibly because they lacked certain cross class skills.

Again, this isn't about giving actions, it's about giving passives that augment play. A job, and content, should be doable without any augmentation. The point is that the augmentation should be either quality of life, reinforcing a strength, or shoring up a weakness. The difference between the weakness of a tank not having provoke and say shoring up magic defense is that one is vital for a job to DO it's job and the other makes life easier both for the tank and healer. One breaks a job, the other simply makes it more viable.

As for people being elitist, well this is the internet and jerks abound. Just came from a raid where someone was complaining about transexuals for no reason other then to cause a fight. So yes there will be some jerks, and those will stand out. But most people probably won't care as long as you both do your job and content gets done.

[Mahrze]

Actually, no we didn't have that depth even pre-SB. Depth is....well depth. The role action panel pretty much sums up the issue as it stands now as it did then. You have a certain number of actions that just outweigh all the rest,

This is actually untrue. certain jobs make better use of certain role skills than others and the outliers are mostly due to personal preference and style. It's not a great system. but its much less of a "set it and forget it" that was pre-SB.

As for class ID, I feel every class now is pretty distinctive except maybe DRK. But the thing is all have their weaknesses, and what you and Rowde aren't getting is that it isn't about putting something on the same level as another, it's about shoring up a weakness. The White mage is just always going to have better single target damage vs the other two healers, and better direct healing. The SCH will always have better sustained damage and preventative shields. The AST will simply be more adaptable with better buffs, but less damage then the other two healers. Unless you went all out crazy with a trait system, that won't change. But my point is...the system isn't trying to do that.

Succinctly: This is not different than simply fleshing out Job ID, which is the whole theme the dev team is struggling to achieve in SB to varying degrees.

The who[le] point is to reward players for investing time in other classes, and what better way then to give options for shoring up a lacking aspect of your favorite job? Much like in the single player games, if you have a character you like but is lacking in some area, you can shore up that deficiency. Maybe not to the point of another character that is stronger in that area, but enough that the issue isn't as glaring. Much like what might have been possible with such a system and the old paladin. Yes the DRK knight was simply going to be stronger at magic defense, but the point wasn't to ursurp that but to shore up the paladin where it was lacking and that was in it's own magic defense.

This was the mindset on the previous system. Often than not you'd find ASTs in DF who never even bothered to level THM/BLM for Swiftcast (a must-have skill for every caster sans-RDM) DRKs with no Provoke (a GLA skill) BLMs without Raging Strikes (a ARC only ability) The strength of another job was available for another, this simplified version simply gives you a tookit of varying degrees of customization.

Edit: Adding your your focus on traits, it really is no different since more often than not those affect actions and we're back to square one. An acceptable point of contention but the execution will lead to the same caveat.

And expecting the PLD having an equal ground with a trait that is available to all is like saying all tanks "should have block, regardless". It'll make the "weak" weaker and the "strong" stronger.

The point of customization isn't to make one job into another, and it shouldn't ever be. The point is to either enhance the strengths of a class or to allow someone to diminish a weakness. Or simply to put training wheels on if needed, a trait that could extend effects on players could also maybe extend the timer black mages have for fire or ice spells. Not only would this make the class easier to learn for newbies, but also could diminish the weakness black mages have in their mobility. Summoners and Red mages would still have MUCH better mobility, but the point is that it would make the black mage easier to play in...well most content really.

BLMs mobility is not its weakness, not only that but between the lines and the lowered cast times to aetherial manipulation give them "displacement" abilities on shorter timers than RDM. BLM is considered weak because it doesn't have anything to add outside of (underwhelming) firepower. BLMs "turret mode" is too crippling vs the damage a SMN can deal out while sliding around.

BLM is a rail gun that is shooting boulders that hit like pebbles vs SMN shooting pebbles that hit like a boulder. Your point of customization is understood plenty by most of us. We just know SE won't hit the mark as often as we'd like them to.

[Malkria]

This is actually untrue. certain jobs make better use of certain role skills than others and the outliers are mostly due to personal preference and style. It's not a great system. but its much less of a "set it and forget it" that was pre-SB.

Which classes and in what way? Because I can tell you for healers it most certainly is pretty standard for what they carry.

This was the mindset on the previous system. Often than not you'd find ASTs in DF who never even bothered to level THM/BLM for Swiftcast (a must-have skill for every caster sans-RDM) DRKs with no Provoke (a GLA skill) BLMs without Raging Strikes (a ARC only ability) The strength of another job was available for another, this simplified version simply gives you a tookit of varying degrees of customization.

Again, some of those are vital and some are not. Swift cast makes life easier for healers, but if everyone is doing the job and the healer is vigilent then swiftcast largely goes without use. Especially with an AST which already has a few tricks to manipulate casting times. DRK without provoke I will give you, but again there is a difference between something that allows you to do your job and to do it better. Provoke or any sort of single target taunt is a staple of tanks in mmos, but healers have gotten along just fine without instant casting in-battle raising..in fact in most games it isn't an option to raise in combat.

As for black mages...20% is nice, but again isn't vital to them doing their job. You are confusing the basic ability to DO a job vs what makes a job BETTER.

BLM is a rail gun that is shooting boulders that hit like pebbles vs SMN shooting pebbles that hit like a boulder. Your point of customization is understood plenty by most of us. We just know SE won't hit the mark as often as we'd like them to.

Funny, because everything I have read puts RDM at the bottom because while it can raise multiple people and do a decent heal, it front loads it's damage and falls behind the BLM for overall damage.

And expecting the PLD having an equal ground with a trait that is available to all is like saying all tanks "should have block, regardless". It'll make the "weak" weaker and the "strong" stronger.

Either you are failing to understand what I am trying to say or I am not explaining this correctly. Think of it like this, if you were playing a normal RPG and a character does great damage but is weak on defense you can at the very least probably go two ways. You can either go all out on offense and make the character a glass cannon, or sacrifice that potential to shore up said character's defense. It would be the same way here. Yes you could give the same trait to a dark knight and thus have even greater magic defense, but you are potentially sacrificing either enhancing another of that job's strengths or shoring up it's own weakness.

Again, it is NOT about putting them on equal ground. Let me repeat that, it is NOT about making the paladin a poor man's dark knight. The point is that the paladin could have an option to shore up a weakness it has so that it is more VIABLE then it was before in a magic damage heavy fight. But people still played paladins even when they were weak to magic, they just had a harder time doing it. Which means that the paladin user could ALSO choose to not shore up that weakness and maybe strengthen or change so other aspect.

That is the whole core and meaning of MEANINGFUL CHOICES. Right now, the role action system doesn't really provide it. As while actions such as swift cast are not absolutely necessary, it is far more viable and useful then adding heavy to a mob or pulling a player towards you.

[silentwindfr]

BLMs mobility is not its weakness, not only that but between the lines and the lowered cast times to aetherial manipulation give them "displacement" abilities on shorter timers than RDM. BLM is considered weak because it doesn't have anything to add outside of (underwhelming) firepower. BLMs "turret mode" is too crippling vs the damage a SMN can deal out while sliding around.

BLM is a rail gun that is shooting boulders that hit like pebbles vs SMN shooting pebbles that hit like a boulder. Your point of customization is understood plenty by most of us. We just know SE won't hit the mark as often as we'd like them to.

i'm kinda sure that blm right now is one of the most devastating ranged dps of the game, from FFlogs it show it clearly :x

yes, the summoner can rivalize with the blm, but generally very good blm will do far better than smn.

anyway, the role skill was something interesting in the V1 when we had no jobs and was able to litterally create our own class by chosing action and trait from different class.

do we need an incentive reason to level up other job? well... not really, it's a choice, it's up to anyone to take the time to level up another jobs or not. i always advice people to level up a maximum of job, for the only reason that it increase your understanding of what the other can do and by the way what you can or not try.

player don't need to be hold by the hand for do stuff, if they don't want to do something, they will not do it.

ps: the role skill as they are right now are flawed too, many jobs have 3-4 mandatory skill, that are absolutly needed for have a jobs playable. like shield and esuna that are absolutly needed for a good progression, or lucid dream and swiftcast...leaving you with... one skill to choose?
FF14 weakness is the customization of the jobs, it was always and sadly i highly doubt it will ever change. the reason behind this is simple, they are tailoring most of the game for raid, hardcore raid are made by balancing it around what the jobs can do, thanks god no jobs are useless (like some try to make it) but player being player, people always take the easy way for reach the goal. means even if we had more choice, we will often see only one or two build max... then *shrugs*

[Sigma-Astra]

The point of customization isn't to make one job into another, and it shouldn't ever be. The point is to either enhance the strengths of a class or to allow someone to diminish a weakness. Or simply to put training wheels on if needed, a trait that could extend effects on players could also maybe extend the timer black mages have for fire or ice spells. Not only would this make the class easier to learn for newbies, but also could diminish the weakness black mages have in their mobility.

I don't really feel as if we need an extended timer for the fire and ice spell regarding black mage. They're already set at 13 seconds each which is more than enough time to get a general idea for the rotation. And honestly speaking, thm/blm at lower levels is already pretty boring in terms of skill and fairly easy to understand. The only things that I've ever had to remind newbies of is that Thunder II works as a multi-target dot since that wasn't always the case beforehand. The class is fairly easy to learn already with a simple, if not strict, rotation to follow that you can't really deviate from.

The mobility issues, and there are some, however, are not the main cause for concern regarding black mage all of the time. It's the fact that a good BLM player has to put in 200% more effort in order to effectively get anywhere while a SMN can do a lot less and get a lot more out of the deal. An extended timer wouldn't ease anyone in playing BLM better because it's not the rotation that's hard to learn or handle, it's the idea that a good black mage needs to map out an entire fight ahead of time and plan accordingly. A good blm will know the mechanics intuitively like the back of their hand and treat most fights as second nature, knowing when to put Leylines down and where, when to hold back for phase transitions, and when to move and how to keep movement as minimal as possible, etc. Now, that could be said for any and all classes, however, it's more connected with black mage because when we move, it's a DPS loss no matter what. Some things like Behind the Lines, Transpose, Triplecast, and Aetherial do help, but, it's still not a perfect set-up and probably never will be.

Whenever I talk with or ask other people why they dislike or find playing black mage harder than other jobs, it's not because the timer isn't long enough or mobility, it's because they have to put in double the effort for a reward (high damage) when they can play something like Summoner and put in less, while still getting more. Hell, they've told me that they rather play Monk because the return is better.