Holmgang is way too strong for how short the CD is and needs to be nerfed.

[Saeno]

What I meant was Warrior could not take them all without swap. I can take all Hyperdrives without a swap no problem. That's a difference in content design that has nothing to do with abilities.

That sounds like a huge problem in terms of efficiency since you are not using your abilities and your co-tanks abilities optimally. There is no advantage to using all of your tank CD's on tank busters over invul especially when your tank CD's can be used on auto attacks instead.

[TouchandFeel]

But if we go into that logic...
...as long as the tank meta favors doing as much DPS as possible, Clemency is irrelevant and might as well not exist

Also DRK would have no self-healing capability in most trials/boss fights since Soul Eater's heal is Grit locked, Abyssal Drain would be a huge DPS loss against a single target and so you would never use it and many, if not most, fights don't have anything to potentially get the measly amount of healing Sole Survivor would provide.

People can't just selectively wave away acknowledging abilities and what they bring to the table because of a meta while ignoring how adhering to that meta would also negatively effect the other jobs.

[Reynhart]

Also DRK would have no self-healing capability in most trials/boss fights since Soul Eater's heal is Grit locked, Abyssal Drain would be a huge DPS loss against a single target and so you would never use it and many, if not most, fights don't have anything to potentially get the measly amount of healing Sole Survivor would provide.

Yeah, DRK is atrocious on the self-healing department...which also serve making LD much worse than Holmgang (And Hallowed Ground), since DRK is the only tank that can't recover on its own after using its "I won't die" skill.

[whiskeybravo]

That sounds like a huge problem in terms of efficiency since you are not using your abilities and your co-tanks abilities optimally. There is no advantage to using all of your tank CD's on tank busters over invul especially when your tank CD's can be used on auto attacks instead.

I didn't claim it was efficient nor that it's our usual strategy, but I have had to do it out of necessity a few times - my point was mainly it would've been impossible to do the same on ExDeath. In this case the difference is not Holmgang but rather the way the fight is designed.

[Saeno]

I didn't claim it was efficient nor that it's our usual strategy, but I have had to do it out of necessity a few times - my point was mainly it would've been impossible to do the same on ExDeath. In this case the difference is not Holmgang but rather the way the fight is designed.

I see your point. And you are correct that in several cases, the issue comes from the fight itself. Dualcast Thunder lll or Delta attack are perfect examples and Holmgang just happens to be perfect for those skills. And that's ok, Holmgang in this case serves as a full fledged "oh shit" button as intended. Again, the issue comes from how often you can do abuse this. I really do not see why ANY tank in this game needs an "oh shit" every 3 minutes especially when it creates the dynamic of "how often can we use tank invul for these busters". It also eliminates the aspect of stacking strong CD's like Vengeance and Rampart together for certain busters since you will be better off using invul as many times as possible. Why is this an issue? Because I would like to put more thought into my CD mapping than "Holmgang as much as possible".

[Saeno]

Here is a simple tank CD rotation of O8S with a PLD+WAR comp. As you can see, 4 out of 5 Ultimate Embrace are taken with a tank invul. The one Ultimate Embrace (second one) that is taken without an Invul is taken with three CD's on both tanks. While that is fantastic, you're still taking 80% of the hardest hitting tank busters with tank invuls. It's a bit... excessive.

[whiskeybravo]

Here is a simple tank CD rotation of O8S with a PLD+WAR comp. As you can see, 4 out of 5 Ultimate Embrace are taken with a tank invul. The one Ultimate Embrace (second one) that is taken without an Invul is taken with three CD's on both tanks. While that is fantastic, you're still taking 80% of the hardest hitting tank busters with tank invuls. It's a bit... excessive.

I mean, I don't disagree with your sentiment. I can sort of relate it to the knockback situation, everyone has an antiknock back except poor BRD/MCH so why do we even have knockbacks.. At least is a similar kind of problem, why do we have these "scary" tankbusters when we can just swap invulns and ignore them?

Personally I don't like using Holmgang except for oh shit moments, simply because it can leave you extremely vulnerable if healers aren't prepared (not much different than LD in this regard). And it makes me feel like I'm wasting Vengeance (most powerful mitigation ability used for 5 or 6 auto attacks?) I was actually going to make a clip from last night, but I did my usual Holmgang for 2nd Head On and got rooted at the edge of where the front ghost box spawns, I couldn't get out of it in time and died as soon as Holmgang fell off. Yea that's all my fault but wouldn't have had that problem with the LD or Hallowed. It may be the only time that's happened but my point is it's not always a guaranteed "win" button, it does have drawbacks. I also remember back when Shinryu came out I had to adjust for the 2nd TB I holmganged because sometimes the heart would die and I'd lose the target causing me to mistime Holmgang, so I just started never leaving Shinryu lol. Again, it's all on me, but not problems that occur with the other invulns.

There's another solution too and it's right on the tooltips: "most attacks can not kill you". There have certainly been mechanics in the past which could not be invuln'd. So if they are going to design something like a "shared" tankbuster it should be basic routine to make it kill you through an invuln if solo, otherwise what's the point? It's basic design decisions like this that allow Warrior to seem so powerful compared to the other tanks.

[Saeno]

it makes me feel like I'm wasting Vengeance (most powerful mitigation ability used for 5 or 6 auto attacks?)

In fairness, that's kind of what WAR's are suppose to do. You have so many CD's that you should be putting them on autos, and vengeance DOES have the reflect damage for autos if the autos are physical so it isn't a complete waste.

There's another solution too and it's right on the tooltips: "most attacks can not kill you". There have certainly been mechanics in the past which could not be invuln'd. So if they are going to design something like a "shared" tankbuster it should be basic routine to make it kill you through an invuln if solo, otherwise what's the point? It's basic design decisions like this that allow Warrior to seem so powerful compared to the other tanks.

That would have to apply for all tank invuls and, if Hallowed gets slapped with that, then you "nerf" holmgang by nerfing ALL of the tank invuls including the one that is somewhat balanced. I'm not sure if I like that, though I do get the idea of enforcing this hidden downside of all tank invuls.

[Launched]

You can't say that PLD and DRK's mitigation is more powerful if you decide on your own to ignore the most powerful mitigation skill of WAR.

Inner Beast hasn't been a core part of WAR's mitigation kit since Fell Cleave unlocked at level 54. It's avoided as much as possible even in progression by a ton of WAR players, not specifically me.

...as long as the tank meta favors doing as much DPS as possible, Clemency is irrelevant and might as well not exist

How do you say this and also mention Clemency and Passage of arms as upsides to PLD? Those skills dont do damage, so according to you they may as well not exist.

If Clemency and PoA are irrelevant (and a lot of people think that), so is WAR's sustain because it's almost completely limited to Defiance. Thrill is on a 2 minute cooldown and Path's healing is pathetic. Anyone that's going to claim WAR's sustain is good and completely ignore PLD's is biased.

Warrior now and always has been an insanely powerful job since 2.1. The fact that people have been asking for other tanks to be buffed for over 4 years to be on the same level as WAR should say just how powerful WAR has been. There isn't bias towards WAR as much as it is people being tired of everyone always asking other tanks to be buffed. it's been the same song and dance for a very, very long time.

PLD already got huge buffs in 4.0 and became the best tank, and even after it got a few nerfs and WAR got a few buffs/changes it's still the most played tank in Savage. PLD is still the best tank in my opinion (which is why I'm raiding as it), so seeing people ask for nerfs on WAR seems stupid.

[Saeno]

Inner Beast hasn't been a core part of WAR's mitigation kit since Fell Cleave unlocked at level 54. It's avoided as much as possible even in progression by a ton of WAR players, not specifically me.

Farm? maybe. Progression? hell no.

If Clemency and PoA are irrelevant (and a lot of people think that), so is WAR's sustain because it's almost completely limited to Defiance. Thrill is on a 2 minute cooldown and Path's healing is pathetic. Anyone that's going to claim WAR's sustain is good and completely ignore PLD's is biased.

one cooldown being locked behind Defiance does not mean WAR's sustain is limited to it's stance. The cooldowns WAR has access to outside of Defiance are what gave WAR the title of most tankiest tank. Inner beast is excess mitigation.

PLD already got huge buffs in 4.0 and became the best tank, and even after it got a few nerfs and WAR got a few buffs/changes it's still the most played tank in Savage. PLD is still the best tank in my opinion (which is why I'm raiding as it), so seeing people ask for nerfs on WAR seems stupid.

Again, I stated living dead would need to be looked at since the tank invul meta isnt enabled just on WAR. However, Holmgang is the biggest culprit and ultimately 3 minutes for a tank invul is just way too short when other mitigating cooldowns like Sentinel and Shadow wall share that recast. WAR could have a 5 minute recast on Holmgang and all it would change is 60% of all high tank damage being invul instead of 80%. WAR would still be an amazing pick in content because it has so many strengths with little to no downsides.