To Square Enix, these are the reasons why I am currently unsubbed from the FF14.

[KaldeaSahaline]

Ooh, I want to get in on this.

Chocobo Racing
I really love the way they designed genetics in chocobo racing (i.e., realistically). The abilities and the way you customize them are pretty interesting as well. I had a lot of fun with this content for a while, though as I've gained in rank I have hit a bit of a wall where it's not really worth trying to advance. But I got plenty of fun out of it, so I'm pretty pleased. A bit annoyed that I can't really complete the win-based MGP challenges anymore though.

So, based on what you're saying it's "fun", but lacks the well designed/scalability marks.

I won't argue against your definition of fun, but what I think Chocobo racing should have been is basically FF14's iteration of Mario Kart or Crash Team Racing. A side activity that is simply fun to play with friends during downtime. It didn't need all the progression systems and stuff that drove it further to a solo adventure.

In order to be well designed it'd need good modes for solo matching, team matching, as well as allowing people to grab people out of PF/FC/LS's to to go up against. Allow people to spectate and bet and set up their own prizes. As far as rewards go, this REALLY should have been the system where you unlocked new colors, some bardings, etc, rather than the menu content it was placed in.

Lastly, scalability is important. I would have liked to have seen a crisply made level editor UI so people could craft their own tracks and a means to share them among the community. Not only that, but time trials or battles could work.

Lords of Verminion
I admit I haven't actually finished all the tutorials, because I suck at LoV (good at making an initial plan, terrible at reacting to changes on the battlefield). However, the depth of strategy here is pretty cool and I used to spend quite a lot of time statting out good combos of minions. I am impressed at how well they made this clearly mouse-driven style of game work with a controller. Even though I've kind of run out of ways to really enjoy it, the 10,000 MGP weekly challenge keeps this somewhat relevant for me.

Based on your response, I don't see "fun" mentioned, it's definitely not scalable, and well designed is up for debate.

For me, LoV could have gone 2 different routes. The route I care significantly less about would have been a pokemon styled approach.

The better approach I would have liked to have seen is SE to leverage some of their existing IPs. Namely FFT. I envisioned a system that was basically like editing FFT teams and battling out in scenarios and against other players, almost like a really neat version of FF chess.

Diadem
I never did Diadem when it was current, but I have looked at it after the fact (duoing from my FC house) and it seemed like an interesting idea. I can see why it failed on a combat level, but I do think the gathering was a neat idea as an alternate way to get some rarer items. The spoils have also been pretty useful as another option for getting various materials.

So not fun, not well designed, nor was it scalable. Got it.

Eureka
I initially resisted Eureka because the idea of FFXI-style grinding wasn't appealing. By the time I decided to try it, everyone had moved to the NM train model. I've only recently started actually participating in Eureka, but I have to say I find it strangely compelling. There's a lot of downtime on the NM train, and my attempts to level outside of it have been pretty terrible, but the camaraderie of waiting on NMs and the level to which people go out of their way to help low-level nubs like me has been pretty great. I really misjudged this one.

Like many mentioned, the only reason it's "fun" is because it's an activity that is so trivial it allows downtime to socialize. So does AFKing in town, but that's hardly what I would considered well designed fun content.

The Magia board being nothing but a binary if/then statement doesn't lend well to it being well designed either, and it certainly isn't scalable as we've seen now that people have moved past the content.

Materia
Materia has gone through so many forms, all the way back to the strategic conversions of 1.0. Now that they've added materia to most dropped gear and allowed for materia removal, this system has really become something amazing. I'm pretty lazy with updating my combat gear, but in leveling crafting and gathering on alts the system as it stands now has been hugely helpful. I finally don't feel like my materia is just going to sit there waiting for the perfect time to be used. There are tons of ways to get good materia as well, and it seems pretty well-balanced between allowing you to easily get decent materia and it taking effort to get grade VIs and crafting overmelds.

So you are saying that the process of overmelding is fun? The ridiculously prohibitive cost and tedium and low % success rates on binary/boring stats was fun to you?

It definitely isn't well designed with how many clicks it takes to get through the process, and with how basic materia itself is, it's certainly not fun putting in bland +stats that do absolutely nothing to your gameplay either.

Overall I'm very happy with the direction of this game. I never really thought about all these systems separately, but it is kind of amazing how much different cool stuff they've made here. I'm also a big fan of hunts, maps, chocobo companions, and gardening. There's a ton of stuff that you can do at once, which makes me feel like I'm being efficient even when I'm not really doing anything. Now if only I could get off my lazy butt and actually customize my housing a bit...

I just kind of gave up after the first few. It's clear you didn't understand the exercise. You label these things as "cool", but the gameplay forms you list are either zerg content (i.e. not engaging) or menu content (aka click this, get that), and that getting stuff for minimal effort makes you feel efficient, even when you're not really doing anything.

I appreciate the time you took to respond though regardless, as I suspect the person I originally did won't.

[Clover210]

If you haven't noticed, any feedback from western players usually fall on deaf ears. Goodluck on seeing any particular changes unless the Japanese fanbase, the audience that Square Enix only cares about in regards to feedback, are vocal about any said changes

[Talraen]

So, based on what you're saying it's "fun", but lacks the well designed/scalability marks.

I won't argue against your definition of fun, but what I think Chocobo racing should have been is basically FF14's iteration of Mario Kart or Crash Team Racing. A side activity that is simply fun to play with friends during downtime. It didn't need all the progression systems and stuff that drove it further to a solo adventure.

In order to be well designed it'd need good modes for solo matching, team matching, as well as allowing people to grab people out of PF/FC/LS's to to go up against. Allow people to spectate and bet and set up their own prizes. As far as rewards go, this REALLY should have been the system where you unlocked new colors, some bardings, etc, rather than the menu content it was placed in.

Lastly, scalability is important. I would have liked to have seen a crisply made level editor UI so people could craft their own tracks and a means to share them among the community. Not only that, but time trials or battles could work.

I can't agree with you here. I don't think it's fair to expect a side activity to be on par with the best kart racing series of all time, or the best kart racing game outside of that series. (Side note, I appreciate the CTR love! Great game.) What you're describing sounds pretty awesome, but it also sounds like a completely different game they should sell on its own. Particularly the level editor part.

For an MMO side activity, I expect something which is fun to do, doesn't demand constant attention, and can be played for a very long time. (Note that I wish MMO stuff wasn't all designed to last forever, because who has time for that? But it is what I've come to expect and it seems like everyone else wants it.) I think chocobo racing hits all of those notes.

Based on your response, I don't see "fun" mentioned, it's definitely not scalable, and well designed is up for debate.

For me, LoV could have gone 2 different routes. The route I care significantly less about would have been a pokemon styled approach.

The better approach I would have liked to have seen is SE to leverage some of their existing IPs. Namely FFT. I envisioned a system that was basically like editing FFT teams and battling out in scenarios and against other players, almost like a really neat version of FF chess.

I have some of the same arguments here, especially since you're literally comparing Verminion to a different game the same company made (FF Tactics). I would love to see a Tactics-style side game in FFXIV, and I don't think the existence of Lords of Verminion prevents that. It's a totally different thing. They were looking for something relatively quick and action-oriented, and they did an OK job. Not great by any means, but not terrible. I do think the game lacks any compelling reason to play it, though I think that's largely a symptom of its unpopularity. Why invest in something most people don't care about? I hope they try more stuff like this in the future, hopefully with better results.

Like many mentioned, the only reason it's "fun" is because it's an activity that is so trivial it allows downtime to socialize. So does AFKing in town, but that's hardly what I would considered well designed fun content.

The Magia board being nothing but a binary if/then statement doesn't lend well to it being well designed either, and it certainly isn't scalable as we've seen now that people have moved past the content.

That's a fair analysis, but so what? If there's one thing I learned from Eureka, it's how much difference the downtime in a game like FFXI actually made to its enjoyment. FFXI was extremely obtuse and anti-player, yet people still loved it, and Eureka taps into a lot of the reason why that was the case. Why is that a bad thing? If it's designed to be fun, and it is fun, doesn't that make it well-designed?

The Magia board is a bit extraneous, but I don't know what design for that sort of thing would have actually worked well. The only thing I can think of would be to more heavily restrict how often you can change it, and I think that would have just made people mad. It doesn't really add anything to the content (except justifying a few quests), but I don't think it detracts either.

So you are saying that the process of overmelding is fun? The ridiculously prohibitive cost and tedium and low % success rates on binary/boring stats was fun to you?

It definitely isn't well designed with how many clicks it takes to get through the process, and with how basic materia itself is, it's certainly not fun putting in bland +stats that do absolutely nothing to your gameplay either.

In terms of crafting, I do enjoy the materia system. I generally don't do a lot of penta-melding because I craft for fun and not to make money, and I can't afford it. But I'll do a lot of +1 melding or +2 on accessories to gain some slight advantage. The fact that it has a prohibitive cost is what makes it interesting. If it was trivial to max-meld everything, you'd just do that and move on. On the other hand, while I was crafting my two-star crafting gear, I had to decide how much to rely on grade 5 materia (which has a chance of loss upon removal), how much to overmeld, and which pieces were better off as yellow scrip gear compared to the previous crafted set. That's interesting because it requires real choice and there are real risks. Because I craft fairly conservatively, I waited a long time to do this and spent very little (probably lost a few dozen grade IV materia and little else). But if you wanted to be on the bleeding edge of crafting, that was an option as well. That's the epitome of good design to me.

For all other purposes than crafting, I can take or leave materia melding. I find the requirements a bit annoying for gathering, and I don't do any combat content that's hard enough for it to matter whether I melded my gear or not, honestly.

I just kind of gave up after the first few. It's clear you didn't understand the exercise. You label these things as "cool", but the gameplay forms you list are either zerg content (i.e. not engaging) or menu content (aka click this, get that), and that getting stuff for minimal effort makes you feel efficient, even when you're not really doing anything.

I appreciate the time you took to respond though regardless, as I suspect the person I originally did won't.

I'm sure it's coincidental that the four you skipped were the ones I unabashedly loved.

If the "exercise" was to justify content you don't like in terms you've defined, then I would say I "understood" it but made no attempt to actually do it, because that's silly. My point is just that content you find terrible is enjoyed by other people. This game is well-designed for me, perhaps it is not so well-designed for you. And perhaps if they changed the design to your tastes, people like me would like it less. Would that be better or worse? That's a complicated question and I have no idea. But it's not as simple as "this is not engaging, therefore it is bad" because both halves of that premise are in question.

I do appreciate your response as well though, because it's always good to see things from multiple perspectives. And your original question helped me appreciate the game more by thinking about it in the first place. And because now I want a chocobo-based Mario Kart clone really bad!

[Vanitas]

"If you've played one patch, you've played them all."

[MomomiMomi]

In terms of crafting, I do enjoy the materia system. I generally don't do a lot of penta-melding because I craft for fun and not to make money, and I can't afford it. But I'll do a lot of +1 melding or +2 on accessories to gain some slight advantage. The fact that it has a prohibitive cost is what makes it interesting. If it was trivial to max-meld everything, you'd just do that and move on. On the other hand, while I was crafting my two-star crafting gear, I had to decide how much to rely on grade 5 materia (which has a chance of loss upon removal), how much to overmeld, and which pieces were better off as yellow scrip gear compared to the previous crafted set. That's interesting because it requires real choice and there are real risks. Because I craft fairly conservatively, I waited a long time to do this and spent very little (probably lost a few dozen grade IV materia and little else). But if you wanted to be on the bleeding edge of crafting, that was an option as well. That's the epitome of good design to me.

For all other purposes than crafting, I can take or leave materia melding. I find the requirements a bit annoying for gathering, and I don't do any combat content that's hard enough for it to matter whether I melded my gear or not, honestly.

You wrote quite a lot here to basically say "you either do it or you don't." I don't see how that's an interesting decision to make. Good design should assume that the players will want to choose to do it, and make the process of doing it fun and interesting.

The interesting decisions should come in the form of which materia to meld, not if you will meld or not.

[Talraen]

You wrote quite a lot here to basically say "you either do it or you don't." I don't see how that's an interesting decision to make. Good design should assume that the players will want to choose to do it, and make the process of doing it fun and interesting.

The interesting decisions should come in the form of which materia to meld, not if you will meld or not.

It does. If you're not overmelding, you have to mostly focus on Craftsmanship and Control in order to hit minimum requirements for crafts. But if you are overmelding, your main focus is probably going to be CP, because CP makes the biggest difference. The order in which you meld also matters quite a bit in terms of how much it's going to cost. No matter how you do it (and there are many options), getting to the highest crafting tiers is difficult.

[KaldeaSahaline]

I can't agree with you here. I don't think it's fair to expect a side activity to be on par with the best kart racing series of all time, or the best kart racing game outside of that series. (Side note, I appreciate the CTR love! Great game.) What you're describing sounds pretty awesome, but it also sounds like a completely different game they should sell on its own. Particularly the level editor part.

For an MMO side activity, I expect something which is fun to do, doesn't demand constant attention, and can be played for a very long time. (Note that I wish MMO stuff wasn't all designed to last forever, because who has time for that? But it is what I've come to expect and it seems like everyone else wants it.) I think chocobo racing hits all of those notes.

Here we can agree to disagree. I see absolutely no reason that they can't do something like this. In fact, it's almost NEGLIGENT to design something in the same space, but NOT use the benchmark as inspiration.

I.e I would NEVER ever think to create a "party kart" game and not look at Mario Kart/CTR for some ideas of good/bad.

For me, side content needs to be fun enough to stand on its own, if it isn't it failed as "side content".

That's a fair analysis, but so what? If there's one thing I learned from Eureka, it's how much difference the downtime in a game like FFXI actually made to its enjoyment. FFXI was extremely obtuse and anti-player, yet people still loved it, and Eureka taps into a lot of the reason why that was the case. Why is that a bad thing? If it's designed to be fun, and it is fun, doesn't that make it well-designed?

The Magia board is a bit extraneous, but I don't know what design for that sort of thing would have actually worked well. The only thing I can think of would be to more heavily restrict how often you can change it, and I think that would have just made people mad. It doesn't really add anything to the content (except justifying a few quests), but I don't think it detracts either.

The magia board detracts because of opportunity cost (much like most other content forms I discussed above). The fact that something SIGNIFICANTLY better COULD have existed is why it's awful. In my opinion, Eureka had a few opportunities to really push the envelope and they dropped the ball. It's literally nothing I (and a lot of others) wanted. I didn't want more FATEs. I didn't want mindless mob grinds. I didn't want an illusion of choice less pitiful than the old level up stats we used to have. I wanted weather to matter. Mob AI to react to weather and have interactions with elements. I can go into examples, but I've done that in other threads.

I even built my own concept of Eureka a while ago (long before it came out) and posted it on these forums. To me, it had a significantly more engaging core design, but like all development had some issues. Fortunately, I have the luxury of sharing the concept with players to get feedback rather than pushing it live and hoping its well tuned/received.

As far as fun goes, Eureka itself isn't fun (again IMO). Killing nameless/mindless mobs and spamming one move over and over isn't fun. It's only fun because of the social aspect, Eureka can't get credit for that. Maybe it isn't fair to be that way, but I just cannot justify it.

I'm sure it's coincidental that the four you skipped were the ones I unabashedly loved.

I honestly didn't read them. I'm sorry for that, I got busy at work. I will put some effort into it tomorrow though if i get time (busy day tomorrow sadly).

If the "exercise" was to justify content you don't like in terms you've defined, then I would say I "understood" it but made no attempt to actually do it, because that's silly. My point is just that content you find terrible is enjoyed by other people. This game is well-designed for me, perhaps it is not so well-designed for you. And perhaps if they changed the design to your tastes, people like me would like it less. Would that be better or worse? That's a complicated question and I have no idea. But it's not as simple as "this is not engaging, therefore it is bad" because both halves of that premise are in question.

I do appreciate your response as well though, because it's always good to see things from multiple perspectives. And your original question helped me appreciate the game more by thinking about it in the first place. And because now I want a chocobo-based Mario Kart clone really bad!

The exercise I was hoping for was a more structed approach to my criteria. I.e. going itno specific details/examples as to how something is fun, well designed, and scalable. While your response very briefly touched on "fun" (subjectively speaking of course), you ignored the other aspects.

[MomomiMomi]

Ah, irony. How you tickle me. Someone doesn't meld and thinks it's a good system, while I do meld and think it's a terrible system.

[Ruf]

I hate to say it but i agree.. i mean like without even pointing to the normal melding system, the fact that materias are retrievable & overstocked now... yea im with you on that MomomiMomi.I do meld but i just feel that even if i do not & even if i did now, it doesnt change much

[KisaiTenshi]

Here we can agree to disagree. I see absolutely no reason that they can't do something like this. In fact, it's almost NEGLIGENT to design something in the same space, but NOT use the benchmark as inspiration.

I.e I would NEVER ever think to create a "party kart" game and not look at Mario Kart/CTR for some ideas of good/bad.

Here's the thing though, SE could conceivably design a PvP Chocobo-racing like the Mario Cart PvP mode. Almost everything is there for it. We have PvP maps, we have Chocobos, we have debuff "items". All that is needed is a way to allow the players to target each other on a PvP map and not be knocked off their mount. Heck... go one further and allow other mounts to be used as well, give every (non-cash shop) land mount their own specs for racing/pvp.