4.3: The Geomancers

[Ghastly]

Yeah it's one of those popular jobs on the tier below blm, whm, dragoon, etc and Yoshida likes the classic jobs a lot specially when he has a chance to give it a new perspective like they did with dark knight. I bet that he's going to make Geomancer a tank. No one thought dark knight was going to be a tank and we saw what happened. A tank mage would be something new and unique, in FFXIV they might turn it into a melee mage with low range but keep the casting which is ultimately what defines a mage.

[BillyKaplan]

I bet that he's going to make Geomancer a tank.

Dark Knights weren't established in the canon prior to HW though, meanwhile Geomancers were established to be foils to ASTs and healers in their own right in the AST 60-70 quest line. If they do introduce Geomancer they'll have to find a way to set them apart from AST and CNJ on at least a lore front, because right now there's nothing there. They use the same elements as CNJ and were established to be AST's matches, the biggest difference is that geomancers look at Hydaelyn whereas ASTs look at the stars, but it's ultimately the same aether. The comparison was the core of the AST 60-70 line. In many ways it buried the job's chances of making it into the game as it opened the door for it.

[Mahrze]

Dark Knights weren't established in the canon prior to HW though, meanwhile Geomancers were established to be foils to ASTs and healers in their own right in the AST 60-70 quest line. If they do introduce Geomancer they'll have to find a way to set them apart from AST and CNJ on at least a lore front, because right now there's nothing there. They use the same elements as CNJ and were established to be AST's matches, the biggest difference is that geomancers look at Hydaelyn whereas ASTs look at the starts, but it's ultimately the same aether. The comparison was the core of the AST 60-70 line. In many ways it buried the job's chances of making it into the game as it opened the door for it.

All the more reason why it'd be nice if they added Geomancer's concept to WHM and drop the WHM crap of it being "the pure healer"

[BillyKaplan]

All the more reason why it'd be nice if they added Geomancer's concept to WHM and drop the WHM crap of it being "the pure healer"

That kind of ties back into what bothered me about WHM's quest line in SB - they didn't have one. E-Sumi-Bro and Sylphie being there as well as talking about the CNJ guild headquarters made it a CNJ story. And given how much of the 1-30 storyline was about cleansing impurities and taints, the 50-60 might as well have been a CNJ story, too. It's like they can't afford to double down on Amdapori lore like they do with Mhach for BLM and Nym for SCH which leaves them with CNJ bare-bones. So either they get over themselves and give us the WHM lore we truly deserve, detached from present-day Gridania, or double down on the CNJ lore and build up more elements of the class/job. SB BRD storyline suffered from this too but not only was it at the heart of the SB story, you ran only with BRD-story NPCs so it wasn't as bad for me.

[Ghastly]

Dark Knights weren't established in the canon prior to HW though, meanwhile Geomancers were established to be foils to ASTs and healers in their own right in the AST 60-70 quest line. If they do introduce Geomancer they'll have to find a way to set them apart from AST and CNJ on at least a lore front, because right now there's nothing there. They use the same elements as CNJ and were established to be AST's matches, the biggest difference is that geomancers look at Hydaelyn whereas ASTs look at the starts, but it's ultimately the same aether. The comparison was the core of the AST 60-70 line. In many ways it buried the job's chances of making it into the game as it opened the door for it.

They were not presented as healers in the sb story, they were presented as wardens, they create seals and shields to bind evil forces.
Which other role creates shields to prevent damage? Tank

Not once were the AST geomancers healing, they were pushing back evil influences with their incantations/seals, AST was the one healing.

[Ariane]

They were not presented as healers in the sb story, they were presented as wardens, they create seals and shields to bind evil forces.
Which other role creates shields to prevent damage? Tank

Not once were the AST geomancers healing, they were pushing back evil influences with their incantations/seals, AST was the one healing.

Looks like the Geomancer used CNJ cures here. Same animation as the CNJ cure and the wrath's HP goes up

[BillyKaplan]

Which other role creates shields to prevent damage? Tank

Tanks are inferior in protecting other party members compared to Scholar and Astrologian in Nocturnal Sect, and are equal to a Diurnal AST thanks to Collective Unconscious having shields backed into it. White Mage is behind those two but with Divine Benison they're actually on par with Dark Knight with how well they can prevent damage to other party members. That's just remembering skills, it's far, far from their role to do so. (EDIT: admitting to slightly misread that and focused on party defense. but the point still holds in that all healers have shielding capabilities, with SCH's shields being its thing and AST having an option at it. Shields are hardly a Tank exclusive thing)
Then we have our AST NPC wanting to study under Leveva. Their arts are said to be roughly identical, the source of the aether they call upon is different, that's all. Geomancers being tanks makes no sense within the lore established for them and their comparisons within the game so far. I agree letting them be tank would be about the only way in which they can have a right to exist within the game, as between CNJ and AST they're redundant, but it's that role switch that's a problem.

Looks like the Geomancer used CNJ cures here. Same animation as the CNJ cure and the wrath's HP goes up

Makes sense, they do call upon the same elements. Cure is a wind spell.

[kikix12]

Um...What's the point of this discussion about the NPC, really?! In this game gladiator NPC's can heal. An ex-warrior NPC at lvl60 heals for ~10000HP with a spell that I don't recall seeing. Black mages use spells not available to players. Same with just about any other class.

Don't base anything on NPC's and their skill sets. Yes, the LORE suggests that if they will come, they're more likely to come as healers. Frankly I hope not...at least not in 5.0 seeing as I want a dancer and for it to be a healer and I doubt we'd get two healers...but hey.

By the way, Black Magic and White Magic have the same origin as far as I remember the lore related to them. Black magic as it is was simply formed when Shantotto decided that she's not happy with just her own aether cause it limits how much boom and blast she can do so she invented a way to draw in outside aether. That's all. There is no reason to assume that there are no branches of geomancers that are basically any of the three roles. Ones focused on destroying evil (DPS), ones on wards (tanks) and ones on restoring damage caused by evil (healers). The NPC's grandfather (or was it father?!) could have been the "wards" type, seeing as he made a ward powerful enough to hold the beast for so long without sacrificing anyone's life.

[Ghastly]

Tanks are inferior in protecting other party members compared to Scholar and Astrologian in Nocturnal Sect, and are equal to a Diurnal AST thanks to Collective Unconscious having shields backed into it. White Mage is behind those two but with Divine Benison they're actually on par with Dark Knight with how well they can prevent damage to other party members. That's just remembering skills, it's far, far from their role to do so. (EDIT: admitting to slightly misread that and focused on party defense. but the point still holds in that all healers have shielding capabilities, with SCH's shields being its thing and AST having an option at it. Shields are hardly a Tank exclusive thing)
Then we have our AST NPC wanting to study under Leveva. Their arts are said to be roughly identical, the source of the aether they call upon is different, that's all. Geomancers being tanks makes no sense within the lore established for them and their comparisons within the game so far. I agree letting them be tank would be about the only way in which they can have a right to exist within the game, as between CNJ and AST they're redundant, but it's that role switch that's a problem.

Tell that to a warrior casting shake it off, a drk casting blackest knight, and a paldin casting the wings. Point is, the tank role is also a protect role. In fact, tanking is more about protecting than the healer role is, healing is the curing role. But I see you admitted that point was right in your edit.

On your point about Leveva, he went to learn how to heal, something Geomancers are not good at, which is why, we, the real astrologians had to be there to really heal the demon spirit.

Makes sense, they do call upon the same elements. Cure is a wind spell.

Just so that we're clear, Geomancer is not solely an elemental mage. Geomancer is directly related to the natural flow of the earth which consists of using the earth as a source of energy which is closer to using the environment as a weapon/tool rather than just summoning the elements (fire, wind, earth; the elements are limited to their properties). The environment on the other hand isn't limited to the elements, a geomancer can summon lava from below or turn air into a tornado or even mix that tornado to create a hurricane, sandstorms, dust storms. Furthermore it's not limited to air effects, it could use any natural object or fauna it can find (grass, trees, or even stone (oh! they removed stoneskin from healers, hmm wonder if it's coming back).

[BillyKaplan]

On your point about Leveva, he went to learn how to heal, something Geomancers are not good at, which is why, we, the real astrologians had to be there to really heal the demon spirit.

He already knows how to heal as he too helped heal during the solo duties. He doesn't want to learn healing from Leveva, he wants to learn of the Diurnal sect. That's because what geomancers already have is similar to Nocturnal sect. ASTs aren't all about the pure healing, they can shield just fine. I'd say they shield better than Geomancers given how we basically saved the day by patching up their wards.

Geomancer is directly related to the natural flow of the earth which consists of using the earth as a source of energy

1. As I said before, they acknowledged that in the game thoroughly, with AST drawing that energy from other stars and planets while geomancers draw it from Hydaelyn - they admitted all these similarities which is why he wants to study from Leveva, see what he's missing. And White Mages don't tap as much into the elements as much as they do the life force itself. So again, geomancer doesn't bring anything new to the table
2. Everything else you said makes them an aoe dps, not a tank. Or a support dps. That would give them a right to exist, tie in with the existing lore (since they did need ASTs - healers - to help with everything), and leave DNC free to be a healer

wards (tanks)

Nymian Scholars would like to have a word with you about the role you assigned to them