Stop with the pay to win advanages for retainers, suggestions on fixes

[Reynhart]

Just because you dont see that as a win does not make it that way for others.

You're right, I don't see that as winning because I don't see what the "winning" or "losing" condition are, who are your opponents and how you face them, and how you build that as a competition.
Can you explain how you decide who "wins" ?

Even in a competitive game, someone with greater skill can still defeat someone who has paid for an advantage. It's still P2W even though the person didn't win.

You'd still spend money with the purpose of winning something.

[MomomiMomi]

You'd still spend money with the purpose of winning something.

Perhaps. But you weren't sold a win. You were sold an advantage. What the person was hoping to buy has no relevance on what was actually being sold.

Therefore, P2W doesn't mean pay to win. It means pay for an advantage.

[Alleo]

You're right, I don't see that as winning because I don't see what the "winning" or "losing" condition are, who are your opponents and how you face them, and how you build that as a competition.
Can you explain how you decide who "wins" ?

You'd still spend money with the purpose of winning something.

See it as PVP for crafters. Maybe someone is working hard to be the one that first gets the whole crafted set on the server. Maybe someone wants that Gillionaire title or for the MB you can have someone that wants to be the main seller for an item. There are sadly some people that use gathering bots to get all the items and that sells thousands of them and barely anyone has a chance in that market section. I am quite sure that the 8 character per server but especially the retainers are given that person the huge advantage.

You can reach all of that without the retainers, but the thing is that retainer saves you time. Which is one of the biggest points in definitions of P2W, next to power or simply something a better gear. And having reduced the time it takes is an advantage that you got by paying. I mean P2W is never instant win. Its always just a help to reach that goal.

[Vstarstruck]

See it as PVP for crafters. Maybe someone is working hard to be the one that first gets the whole crafted set on the server. Maybe someone wants that Gillionaire title or for the MB you can have someone that wants to be the main seller for an item. There are sadly some people that use gathering bots to get all the items and that sells thousands of them and barely anyone has a chance in that market section. I am quite sure that the 8 character per server but especially the retainers are given that person the huge advantage.

You can reach all of that without the retainers, but the thing is that retainer saves you time. Which is one of the biggest points in definitions of P2W, next to power or simply something a better gear. And having reduced the time it takes is an advantage that you got by paying. I mean P2W is never instant win. Its always just a help to reach that goal.

exactly, like with this:

same thing as above, if no one cared for this kind of competition, 2 people wouldn't of been spam price changing (you see why I said price changing and not undercut in a bit) for 1 hour straight. On this one set of walls, 2 people spammed price changes every 15 sec to 30 sec for 1 hour straight. Once one felt it was too low, would hike it back up, and the other would undercut the new hike price and start all over.

Do you really think those 2 went at it purely for gil? no there is that competition, you want to sell yours, you want more people to have gear with your name on it, etc. I mean dedicated crafter can spot other dedicated crafters and if you see their name on gear someone is using its like UGH!

it isn't just time though, the MB moves slow, so having 200 different things makes more gil then listing 40, then if you go extreme, 3200 slots = owning the MB completely to monopolize on. You simply "buy out" the competition by undercut spam then buying them out then hiking price again, people not big in crafting will not keep up with it and give up at some point.

the app though being undercut off that as you craft and doing other things? a full time crafter will have huge advantages off it, that is something you can't extra fee, either make it free or don't have it at all.

[Istaru]

you want more people to have gear with your name on it

I love this! It makes me so happy to see that someone is enjoying an item I made!! That is my goal when playing this game, to make stuff that other people will buy and use. It is hard enough to do that now, the app has the potential to make it harder.

I mean dedicated crafter can spot other dedicated crafters and if you see their name on gear someone is using its like UGH!

This is also true. One of them lives in the same ward as me too!!

[Vstarstruck]

Having more inventory is not pay to win. Or having 8 retainer you will get a insta Kefka down? or you will have advantage in PVP? You're making a ----- mountain of this,when it means nothing.

can you read the thread before acting condescending? it would be most helpful. I will give you a hint though, it has nothing to do with inventory space (how much inventory space that should come with base sub is a different debate) It is about sale slots and how to manage them. 10 retainers vs 2? 200 slots per chr vs 40? 1600 vs 320? these are pay to win advantages. It gets even worse when you pay real money to each time you change something to the mb, like undercut control. This means there will be that one person that takes full control of the mb due to how far P2W the MB is now. Maybe open your mind up a bit as you read some replies to prevent making foolish posts such as this.

Or are you one of those that wants to make sure this app happens so you do have full control of the MB? always wondered if there is a poster here with such motivation.

I love this! It makes me so happy to see that someone is enjoying an item I made!! That is my goal when playing this game, to make stuff that other people will buy and use. It is hard enough to do that now, the app has the potential to make it hazarded.



This is also true. One of them lives in the same ward as me too!!

Least there is a few that understands, not just me vs everyone else. That is a refreshing change. (Like look at the thread I made talking about how I was helping my SO with inventory space) taking 2 hrs from lacking a feature that would take a few mins that is locked behind a 5 dollar a month paywall on a second sub is ridiculous.

[Reynhart]

See it as PVP for crafters.

If there was some kind of rank for crafters or "gillionaires", I'll wholeheartedly agree with you. Because, at that point, everyone would actually participate in a shared "race".

Right now, you probably have people who create their full roster of characters to have the most free (or paid) retainers available (with a personal FC for sharing items), or even some people with multiple accounts (A friend of mine probably has three, judging by the number of alts he connects at the same time), the latter you can not prevent, and some with only Entry accounts...how is the MB "competition" still balanced that a single retainer will break it ? Or is it already so imbalanced that doing a race with others is rigged anyway ?

[Vstarstruck]

If there was some kind of rank for crafters or "gillionaires", I'll wholeheartedly agree with you. Because, at that point, everyone would actually participate in a shared "race".

Right now, you probably have people who create their full roster of characters to have the most free (or paid) retainers available (with a personal FC for sharing items), or even some people with multiple accounts (A friend of mine probably has three, judging by the number of alts he connects at the same time), the latter you can not prevent, and some with only Entry accounts...how is the MB "competition" still balanced that a single retainer will break it ? Or is it already so imbalanced that doing a race with others is rigged anyway ?

Has nothing to do with adding another retainer itself, its more so that last retainer costs 7 dollars a month, while 7 others are 14 dollars a month, totaling 21 dollars a month. Anyways you are missing our point, the fact you need some kind of ranking board to show a "win" again this is only showing how narrow minded your view point is. Pay to win means getting any kind of advantage with real money that someone else can't get unless they pay real money. You do not need a ranking board to prove a "win" stop taking it so literally that is not what pay to win means, Alleo keeps repeating this, I keep repeating this, MomomiMomi keeps repeating this. Ever think the issue here is your narrow scope how to define pay to win, if you are unwilling to try to see a different point of view outside your own narrow scope, this argument will never end, just be people repeating the same thing over and over again.

The problem here is SE is making an issue by giving people an advantage by paying real money, if people do not make a stand and say no, they will keep pushing and pushing. Basically your narrow scope how to define pay to win is bringing future harm to the game.

We also need to stand up and say no extra fees for basic UI functions, stop trying to copy EA/konami

[Alleo]

If there was some kind of rank for crafters or "gillionaires", I'll wholeheartedly agree with you. Because, at that point, everyone would actually participate in a shared "race".

So since there is no official rank for savage does that mean savage also has no win thus even if they introduce gear with stats or something else that just give an advantage its not P2W?

People can and will create their own goals..and if someone else can reach this goal faster than them because of retainers than the one that created their own goal is in an disadvantage. Again, people disliked the costumes that had nothing to do with PVP in Black desert online because they still gave an advantage even if there was not a real "win" either.

If we take your definition barely anything in games would count as that.

This thread is a joke. :/

And yet it has over 70 likes. More than double the amount that dont see it that way. A forum is a minority of the playerbase but it seems that more people might see this as P2W than those that dont. At least with those that visit the forum. Its sad that something like that is seen as a joke even though its far away from trolling and even have lots of reasonings. You could just simply ignore it, if its just a joke for you.

Heck the problem is that there does not exist one right definition of P2W. I read through some other forums and you can have quite the different interpretations about that. It would just be nice if people at least see that retainers are an advantage. Maybe they are not P2W for you (as in those that dont see it that way) but they are still an advantage that is paid with real money and thus is already something that should (imo) not happen in a sub MMO.

[Remedi]

So since there is no official rank for savage

World firsts are always monitored and if anything recognized by yoshida and the dev team.
There's not a true ranking but there's an implicit one

Not to mention that it happened that world first racers talked with the dev team from time to time in interwiews.

So ye the competition is real in there