Stop with the pay to win advanages for retainers, suggestions on fixes

[Vstarstruck]

You have something called pay to progress and something called pay to win.
Pay to progress is where you pay yourself access to get to new places/areas etc. In some other concept maybe you need certain items etc. Pay to win is where gear matters to win the thing, it's like pvp where the stronger gear you have the more damage you do, but in this game you don't have that sort of benefit, since everyone is equally geared. Again, I need to know what you mean by pay to win.
I'm wondering what excactly you are winning by having more retainers, does it clear you ultimate coil? Does it clear you primal wins? Does it clear you any content when you paid for the service?? If so, which content.

I explained it to you, you are paying IRL for an advantage, Ptw concepts are not limited to combat or coils. You are simply being too narrow how you define pay to win.

Being able to list more items on the MB then someone paying base sub is an advantage, that's pay to win. Being able to change the pricing on items by this app (might even be able to do so without pulling the retainer off the MB like to do on the game) is pay to win. (also a dedicated crafter doesn't care about "gear matters to win the thing, it's like pvp where the stronger gear you have the more damage you do, but in this game you don't have that sort of benefit, since everyone is equally geared") All they want to do is craft and sell things, and retainers and the app is pay to win there. Also FFXIV pay to win is also the ability to send out more ventures at once, 2 vs 10 at once? you do not see how that is a problem?

"pay to progress" is the story skip potion in this game with leveling i guess.. but that is off the point in the pay to win argument?

[MaloraYuki]

It’s not pay to win I opt to have paid retainers because I have so many glam items I decided I needed the extra space, purely cosmetic. I know people who don’t have paid retainers that make more gil than me, even though I have more retainers. Retainer venture stuff that is worth anything is hard to get, and most of it isn’t worth much anymore. So ventures really aren’t that important. It’s paying for quality of life not pay to win. It doesn’t give you any real advantage. Don’t want to pay then don’t it’s optional they give you the two free.

[Lilseph]

It's not P2W, you can fool yourself as much as you want, but the game's objectives resolve around PvP and PvE and no paid retainer gives you any advantage for any of these modes. Reminds me of the time when the cash shop was introduced, a guy said it was P2W because their objective was to collect minions, and they had to pay to get some. Having an advantage in this game's economy is meh, since gil is pretty much worthless for the vast majority.

[akaneakki]

I explained it to you, you are paying IRL for an advantage

What advantage does that player have over me if I do decide not to pay for the app? I need to know what that person could do better over me.

[Vstarstruck]

What advantage does that player have over me if I do decide not to pay for the app? Ineed to know what that person could do better over me.

I explained it several times! This is the last time I am going to try due to post quota limits.

They get an extra retainer, 20 more items to list, and can price change items as they are in a craft. Remember how ptw is defined:

In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free. Some critics of such games call them "pay-to-win" or "p2w" games. A common suggestion for avoiding pay-to-win is that payments should only be used to broaden the experience without affecting gameplay.[34] For example, games—such as Dota 2, League of Legends, and Maplestory—only allow the purchase of cosmetic items, meaning that a "free-to-play player" will be on the same level as a player who has spent money on the game.

FFXIV is officially the first game that has ptw aspects in it while having a mandatory sub cost on top of it. You are paying IRL money fro an advantage, how much that advantage matters is subjective, but it is still there. 10 ventures at once vs 2, 40 items on the mv vs 400. that is ptw advantages.

expanding on this in a worse case situation:
Some crafters do duel accounts with extra retainers. So lets say someone with a lot of IRL money and in game wants to market control. They can have the main, alt and a secondary chr on one of those accounts access another 10 retainers. With this you have one person controlling 1200 different items. With how the MB works, one person does have too much power and this app will push things over the edge. Market control is this, you buy out an item completely, allowing you to inflate the price. No one can do anything since the person will keep buying said item out. With the glam weekles, like this week being attached to a very limited resource like airship only obtained, the impact on this is quite significant. You just do not see it because you are not heavy with MB control and gil making.

[akaneakki]

I explained it several times! This is the last time I am going to try due to post quota limits.

They get an extra retainer, 20 more items to list, and can price change items as they are in a craft. Remember how ptw is defined:

I keep asking because I don't find it valid enough. I have 3 retainers subbed, my friend has 6. Guess whos making more gil than the other? Me, because I'm smart about my space and I know how to play around on MB. Just giving you more retainers doesn't give you any more advantage than anyone making gil. It's like saying we do a world race where you have a ferrari and I have a old ford from 1974 and you automaticly win, but you can't even drive a car so you will lose the race either way. Again very bad arguments why it's pay to win.

[AlexanderThorolund]

I think the response in this threads have said everything that needs to be said about this reductive thread.

Put an end to it.

[hynaku]

Having extra retainers in not pay to win. Pay to win is when can buy item to max out your level, with job quests, or buy very good gear with out doing any of the work to earn it. Retainer selling items for you is not a pay to win. You can create 8 alts and level them and have 16 retainers for free.

[Lilseph]

I wouldn't define having an extra retainer with x20 selling slots "a significant advantage" over "free" players.

[Vstarstruck]

I am bookmarking this thread for later reference for when this app is released and people complain about that one person doing market control due to the ptw aspect and concern, I can say I told you so, and that I warned people ahead of time