Stop with the pay to win advanages for retainers, suggestions on fixes

[Vstarstruck]

You have something called pay to progress and something called pay to win.
Pay to progress is where you pay yourself access to get to new places/areas etc. In some other concept maybe you need certain items etc. Pay to win is where gear matters to win the thing, it's like pvp where the stronger gear you have the more damage you do, but in this game you don't have that sort of benefit, since everyone is equally geared. Again, I need to know what you mean by pay to win.
I'm wondering what excactly you are winning by having more retainers, does it clear you ultimate coil? Does it clear you primal wins? Does it clear you any content when you paid for the service?? If so, which content.

I explained it to you, you are paying IRL for an advantage, Ptw concepts are not limited to combat or coils. You are simply being too narrow how you define pay to win.

Being able to list more items on the MB then someone paying base sub is an advantage, that's pay to win. Being able to change the pricing on items by this app (might even be able to do so without pulling the retainer off the MB like to do on the game) is pay to win. (also a dedicated crafter doesn't care about "gear matters to win the thing, it's like pvp where the stronger gear you have the more damage you do, but in this game you don't have that sort of benefit, since everyone is equally geared") All they want to do is craft and sell things, and retainers and the app is pay to win there. Also FFXIV pay to win is also the ability to send out more ventures at once, 2 vs 10 at once? you do not see how that is a problem?

"pay to progress" is the story skip potion in this game with leveling i guess.. but that is off the point in the pay to win argument?

[akaneakki]

I explained it to you, you are paying IRL for an advantage

What advantage does that player have over me if I do decide not to pay for the app? I need to know what that person could do better over me.

[Vstarstruck]

What advantage does that player have over me if I do decide not to pay for the app? Ineed to know what that person could do better over me.

I explained it several times! This is the last time I am going to try due to post quota limits.

They get an extra retainer, 20 more items to list, and can price change items as they are in a craft. Remember how ptw is defined:

In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free. Some critics of such games call them "pay-to-win" or "p2w" games. A common suggestion for avoiding pay-to-win is that payments should only be used to broaden the experience without affecting gameplay.[34] For example, games—such as Dota 2, League of Legends, and Maplestory—only allow the purchase of cosmetic items, meaning that a "free-to-play player" will be on the same level as a player who has spent money on the game.

FFXIV is officially the first game that has ptw aspects in it while having a mandatory sub cost on top of it. You are paying IRL money fro an advantage, how much that advantage matters is subjective, but it is still there. 10 ventures at once vs 2, 40 items on the mv vs 400. that is ptw advantages.

expanding on this in a worse case situation:
Some crafters do duel accounts with extra retainers. So lets say someone with a lot of IRL money and in game wants to market control. They can have the main, alt and a secondary chr on one of those accounts access another 10 retainers. With this you have one person controlling 1200 different items. With how the MB works, one person does have too much power and this app will push things over the edge. Market control is this, you buy out an item completely, allowing you to inflate the price. No one can do anything since the person will keep buying said item out. With the glam weekles, like this week being attached to a very limited resource like airship only obtained, the impact on this is quite significant. You just do not see it because you are not heavy with MB control and gil making.

[akaneakki]

I explained it several times! This is the last time I am going to try due to post quota limits.

They get an extra retainer, 20 more items to list, and can price change items as they are in a craft. Remember how ptw is defined:

I keep asking because I don't find it valid enough. I have 3 retainers subbed, my friend has 6. Guess whos making more gil than the other? Me, because I'm smart about my space and I know how to play around on MB. Just giving you more retainers doesn't give you any more advantage than anyone making gil. It's like saying we do a world race where you have a ferrari and I have a old ford from 1974 and you automaticly win, but you can't even drive a car so you will lose the race either way. Again very bad arguments why it's pay to win.

[Starflake]

I keep asking because I don't find it valid enough. I have 3 retainers subbed, my friend has 6. Guess whos making more gil than the other? Me, because I'm smart about my space and I know how to play around on MB. Just giving you more retainers doesn't give you any more advantage than anyone making gil. It's like saying we do a world race where you have a ferrari and I have a old ford from 1974 and you automaticly win, but you can't even drive a car so you will lose the race either way. Again very bad arguments why it's pay to win.

This is actually quite a stupid argument, pardon my language. Your example makes no sense at all. It would make more sense if both players were equally smart about their usage of space. It doesn't matter at all that you make more money with less space. Because a player with your wit and that pays for more space to optimize will make way more money than you. In order to establish your argument you'd have to establish equal parametres to determine an advantage.

Let's say SE hypothetically releases a Damage up potion. I do 6000 DPS and the person who used the damage up potion only 5800. You could argue that he still does less and therefore this isn't pay to win. However, this makes no sense at all since you'd have to find someone who does my DPS and then increases it by 200 because of the Damage up potion. Players being less capable than you still enjoy an advantage. Just because they still don't reach the level of someone who doesn't use a feature does not make it a non-advantage, nor does it negate the fact that it is pay to win.

[Vstarstruck]

I am bookmarking this thread for later reference for when this app is released and people complain about that one person doing market control due to the ptw aspect and concern, I can say I told you so, and that I warned people ahead of time

[ErryK]

I am bookmarking this thread for later reference for when this app is released and people complain about that one person doing market control due to the ptw aspect and concern, I can say I told you so, and that I warned people ahead of time

People are already doing that without "pay to win" aspects. :/

[akaneakki]

I am bookmarking this thread for later reference for when this app is released and people complain about that one person doing market control due to the ptw aspect and concern, I can say I told you so, and that I warned people ahead of time

Yea do that, because people who play this game already with less retainers, inlcluding myself made 5 times more gil than those with more retainers. Besides like someone else said in here, making alt gives you free 2 more retainers to sell items on. So I gues it's pay to win to pay that extra small fee for sub or those who wish to use subcards get free retainers on alt is pay to win. Don't forget if someone already paid for their retainers, you can also have the extra same amount of retainers on alt as well. But you never once stated that right? Just saying the app itself gives pay to win, but forgot there is way more ways to get retainers in game.

[Vstarstruck]

Yea do that, because people who play this game already with less retainers, inlcluding myself made 5 times more gil than those with more retainers. Besides like someone else said in here, making alt gives you free 2 more retainers to sell items on. So I gues it's pay to win to pay that extra small fee for sub or those who wish to use subcards get free retainers on alt is pay to win. Don't forget if someone already paid for their retainers, you can also have the extra same amount of retainers on alt as well. But you never once stated that right? Just saying the app itself gives pay to win, but forgot there is way more ways to get retainers in game.

I did:

I explained it several times! This is the last time I am going to try due to post quota limits.

They get an extra retainer, 20 more items to list, and can price change items as they are in a craft. Remember how ptw is defined:


FFXIV is officially the first game that has ptw aspects in it while having a mandatory sub cost on top of it. You are paying IRL money fro an advantage, how much that advantage matters is subjective, but it is still there. 10 ventures at once vs 2, 40 items on the mv vs 400. that is ptw advantages.

expanding on this in a worse case situation:
Some crafters do duel accounts with extra retainers. So lets say someone with a lot of IRL money and in game wants to market control. They can have the main, alt and a secondary chr on one of those accounts access another 10 retainers. With this you have one person controlling 1200 different items. With how the MB works, one person does have too much power and this app will push things over the edge. Market control is this, you buy out an item completely, allowing you to inflate the price. No one can do anything since the person will keep buying said item out. With the glam weekles, like this week being attached to a very limited resource like airship only obtained, the impact on this is quite significant. You just do not see it because you are not heavy with MB control and gil making.

bold for ease I guess. those 1200 items are quickly access too, no wait for log and switch. Just because you think " including myself made 5 times more gil than those with more retainers." does not make it fact across the board, no it is not always true. You jsut want to deny this is pay to win, for whatever reason, I do not know.

Gameplay, in this case, revolves around MMO basics: story quests, dungeon instances, alliance instances, gear progression, socialization. You know, the main reasons we play a game.

Some people's main gameplay is to craft and earn gil, so you are wrong there, also what about that thread where word first clear had alt bot gathering FC to gather and craft to help the first world clear (potions)?

[Vahlnir]

I am bookmarking this thread for later reference for when this app is released and people complain about that one person doing market control due to the ptw aspect and concern, I can say I told you so, and that I warned people ahead of time

I would bookmark it if I were you. This is just the beginning. While not quite P2W yet, it's on the rails and going full speed ahead. Anyone who has been around the block more than once knows how this is going to end. And it's not going to end well. My sub runs out in less than a week, but I will be checking in (not subbing, mind you) every so often to see just how bad things are no doubt going to get. This app is just the start of something terrible.