Bunny outfits for men, not a cryptid!

[DreadRabbit]

I have taken no offense so far and as long as you remain civil I will do my utmost to keep this on the level of discussing differing opinions on even ground.

Of course! I'm actually all for this discussion because I find the culture in MMOs incredibly fascinating, so I thank you for meeting me in the middle to talk about it.

I don't argue that people can dress wildly. Do whatever you want , show as much skin or as little as you want. I argue that whether I have to see it and remain seeing it constantly shouldn't be a choice between that or not experiencing the actual game content I came for.

It's actually interesting that you bring this up, because Reddit's having a field day with that JP thread as well and there was one particular comment that I felt resonated with me. Now I'm only going to quote what I agree from that comment because it gets pretty accusatory and assumes that the Japanese thread is stemmed from the bunny outfit (and all the issues that have also been addressed in this thread). I want to give the Japanese OP the benefit of the doubt here and assume it's truly because of their sense of immersion and nothing else. So what I omit from the quote is what I disagree with.

This was the part that caught my attention:

IMO, you should have to go to extraordinary measures (i.e. graphical mods) to avoid the people that are your definition of "undesirables". This is just like you would have to go to extraordinary measures (become a shut-in or move to small town where everyone shares the same values) in order to avoid the people that are your definition of "undesirable" IRL.

The way society is structured, you don't get to just not be around someone because you don't like something about them unless you make a sacrifice, such as staying in your own home, avoiding locations they frequent, etc. It's the exact same in-game, even to the point where you can get the authorities involved to restrict that person if they are actively imposing themselves on you in a harassing or otherwise illegal way. If you want certain amenities present in society, you have to deal with people with whom you may not be comfortable. An MMO is such a thin abstraction of general society that there's little reason for that not to apply here as well. The real difference is that you aren't being forced to participate in this specific game -- you don't have the option to not participate in real life (well technically that depends on what you have the willpower to do about it), and yet somehow, most people get by IRL without needing to be babied about the different types of people that exist in the world. Those that can't deal with it are being marginalized more and more each day.

Full comment here: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...28&sh=4a1ff50a

Full thread here: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...9f&sh=18df3aef

(Fair warning, the comment thread goes waaaaaay off course on both sides)

Yes, this is a game. And yes, we all pay our subs and have our own reasons for playing this game as we want to and how we want to. But at the end of the day MMOs are living, breathing communities made by living, breathing people. We basically have our own society here.

And I've tried to illustrate in my previous post that you can't run from people expressing themselves in this game precisely because of that. People will find a way, and as BillyKaplan mentioned it is technically censorship. People for the option just don't see it as censorship because it's censorship that benefits them. It's the same thing as wanting restrictions on gear: it's real easy to say you want strict restrictions on what characters can wear until you come across a situation where it works against you and what you want.

If that idea bothers someone, then they shouldn't be playing a multiplayer video game that offers character creation of any kind, in my opinion. Because no matter how much one may want this to be a single player experience they have total control over, they never will just by virtue of the genre this game is in.

In your original response to me you asked if I wanted to support a player who was so obsessed with expressing themselves that they wanted to force their glamour on others and not allow them the option to turn it off. I responded by essentially saying I never saw it as something that was forced to begin with.

I'd like to pose a similar question to you, if that's okay. You don't have to answer if you don't wish to.

In your first response to Iscah you said this:

But you would never know unless someone specifically said something. Also, most games that use a "remove customization" option have a generic glamour for whatever class or job you are to make you easily identifiable. You'd just be another pair of arms and legs in a robe possibly. I may be the weird one here, but does it honestly bug you that much that someone you will never meet, and likely will never see again even in game doesn't see you wearing your shiny things?

My question to you is this: do you want to support players treating other people as just another pair of arms and legs?

I ask because we already have enough issues in game where players treat each other as expendable NPCs: we have to play at a specific pace, we have debates over whether players should be allowed to view cutscenes, and some people can't handle what other players wear, among a myriad of other things.

People seem to be perfectly fine with players conforming to the norm when it comes to how to play mechanically, but suddenly want to be allowed to veer away from the norm stylistically when the norm no longer fits their preferred tastes/worldview/what have you. Or at least that's how it looks to me. I can't speak for anyone else.

I can leave and incur a penalty. Does that sound fair?

Honestly? Yes, to me it does. I've done this multiple times, even as DPS (not because of glamour, but other reasons).

For example: if you don't like the way a tank is pulling in a dungeon yet you seem to be the only one in the party who feels that way, then it's on you to decide whether it's worth it to see the dungeon to the end or if you should leave and take the penalty. You can always ask to be kicked, but at the end of the day you're the one disagreeing with the party/situation. Therefore it's on you to make a decision and accept whatever comes from that decision. I personally see the glamour thing as the same way.

If you can make these the "generic" look I'd say you'd solve most peoples problems. This is what I'm proposing, not just "turning off" glamours.

This particular idea I'm actually not against, however for the sake of those with lower performing PCs/consoles (who I think would get the most out of such an option), we could just keep it simple and when the option is checked everyone just defaults to the starting racial gear on your screen. Way less pieces of gear for your system to remember/process, and most people would agree (I think, again, can't speak for others) that those outfits are agreeable.

It's SUPER selfish, but not imposing though. You aren't telling people to change themselves, you're changing your own perception. I re-iterate: Nobody would know unless you said something.

But is ignoring really not harmful? Let's say there was a "block all Lalafell" or "block all Roes" button. The player isn't telling you to change the race you play, they're just going to change your character to the default Midlander model of the gender you chose because they prefer that aesthetic and think Lalafells/Roes are ugly. It doesn't harm you in any way because it's not on your screen.

Except that's relatively dangerous thinking for SE to adopt. If anything it would lead to a PR disaster, despite the thought process being not that far from the whole "I want to hide glamours I find ugly."

At what point does "I want to tailor the game to my tastes" become problematic and escapist in an unhealthy way? I don't mean this as an exhasperation or how I view this particular scenario, I just mean this as a point of discussion. Because I do feel the bunny outfits fit this particular question (and I welcome anyone reading this to comment).

EDIT: need to go to sleep, so if I don't respond right away that's why.