Request: Please give us alternate ways to obtain PVP armour and weapons

[Gallus]

As do you. And it's gotten lengthy, so I'll put it in spoiler tags to not clutter the page.

Right.
/10char

Your entire premise for the first paragraph is: FFXIV players are more sensitive than players of other games. Okay, let's accept that for now. It then doesn't make sense however why those same players would play any other PvP game on the side where it's just as bad. You cannot explain that with toxicity as your only factor.

You said that, not me. From where do you gather that a lot of FFXIV players play ranked modes in other PVP games? From your small circle of friends? From your PVP linkshell? If we are going by that, I don't know a single person (and trust me I know quite a few in my server...) that play a ranked mode of a PVP game including FFXIV (lies, my FC leader is the only one that does, only in FFXIV, he plays The Feast).

You then point out that this toxicity is largely related to ranked and you can play nonranked modes elsewhere where it isn't as bad. Makes sense, considering that they only restricted the chat in Feast.

Precisely.

What doesn't make sense then however is that Frontlines was dead long before Feast or Ranked were a thing. You can blame bots now, but those weren't a thing back then. Bots weren't a topic during the Seize days. And after a short while of quick 72 man pops, it died down to 24 man pops and ridic queues regardless. Shatter, same thing. We also had unranked 8vs8 Feast for a long while. No bots either, no to low toxicity. But they all died regardless. You're free to look at the JP data centers as well - They don't have a big bot issue. Everything dies just the same regardless.

Except it does make sense. These kind of modes eventually got old and the rewards in them were never updated, they were bound to die sooner or later. Toxicity and ranked mode are a strong deterrent to this community but they aren't the beginning and the end of everything. There are indeed other factors. The rewards are an important thing to consider too.

Those modes also already had rewards - An exclusive achievement set (Field Commander), a mount (Aerodynamics System), the PvP exclusive ADS, the Warsteeds, the Fenrir Pup (Feast Unranked), tomes AND wolf marks. They still died. They also tried having dedicated PvP gear and progression as rewards for PvP in the early days. Result? Dead content and people abusing the lack of players to reliably trade wins.

They were alive until everybody got the significant rewards they could get from there. Then the modes died. Tomes and wolf marks are not significant. You can buy the pup from the mb.

The real issue is that the gameplay is bad and because of that, the game mode keeps requiring more and more rewards to compensate for the lack of innate enjoyment which in turn lures in the bots who want the rewards without having to slog through the actual content. You can argue that this then creates a feedback loop where bots reduce the enjoyment even further, causing SE to require even more rewards leading to even worse botting. Be my guest. But the root of the whole thing lies elsewhere and remains unaddressed.

Which is why I suggested the win x amount of games in The Feast normal. Can you even win games in 4v4 botting? Seems rather unlikely...
Bots are a thing in larger scale modes like frontlines or rival wings where your contribution as an individual has barely any effect on the outcome.
Personally, I don't find the current PVP as terrible as you make it out to be, and I blame its little popularity on the generalized little interest of the FFXIV community towards anything PVP related.

As for ranked PvP in general, it's a well known fact the vast majority of the playerbase in a given game isn't interested in it - Blame it on toxicity if you like. Even in the actual "E-Sports" titles, you won't find more than about 10-20% of the playerbase participating in Ranked. That is naturally bound to fail in a game that can't even attain a decently sized regular PvP population.
That's why attaining one is the first priority if you have ambitions to create a ranked mode. They just failed to do that since ARR because their PvP is bad and hasn't gotten much better since. And that's what's my concern here. People name all kinds of factors, but all PvP, ranked or casual, large scale or small scale, keeps dying regardless of them all. So it has to be something else. Something they all have in common. Gameplay is by far and wide the most likely candidate.

little interest of the FFXIV community towards anything PVP related.

I don't think anyone who didn't play before due to toxicity plays now after the chat ban

I'm no one then :P

because you can be toxic without chat as you yourself ceaselessly point out.

Sadly.

And if you are right and the chat ban did not in fact alleviate toxicity in a noteworthy manner as people start to be toxic in different ways, then it logically also cannot be a factor for growth either, because the growth is attributed to toxicity being reduced and you yourself claim that it didn't actually do that. It would be a contradiction in itself if it then did contribute to growth.

You've put a lot of thought into this I see lol. The selling points of the new pvp mode were the chat restriction (that one really sold me) and the new skill system. The new skill system is no longer new, and pretty sure the chat restriction has taught many of us by now that flamers still have ways to do it (they just needed some time to figure out which was the most annoying way for them to grief others).

[Wintersandman]

I get what Awha is trying to point out. Lets say the first 100 people who clear O8S get a mount but everyone else after don't get one. Did those people who came after put any less effort or work in than the first 100 people?

[Awha]

To be honest you never actually give me a straight answer as to why people deserve what they can't have. Your "answer" is always a philosophical question of why should I care that people get something for "free" versus me/other people getting it through extreme effort and achievement.

It's actually quite mind boggling how you can say such things with a straight face. Why should I work for 1 million dollars if comparatively I could possibly just get 1 million dollars for doing absolutely nothing? You honestly have no sense of value of anything and why things hold value. How can something be considered an object of value when it's made extremely common/accessible?

You never answer these questions, you just say the same thing over and over.

Your money example does not fit within this situation since if 1 million dollars were to be handed out to everyone that would cause inflation, which could lead to some negative impacts on our economy.

Also I have answered many times in the other thread, if the item in question has no objective consequences tied to it, that could be backed up what does it matter if 1 million people have the item in question. Now I do not have the data, so for all I know I could be wrong, but if the data shows that handing out past rewards to people for simply logging in would have a massively negative impact on PvP queues I will agree that I my stance is foolish.

Now thankfully most people do not have my extreme stance and are asking for reasonable options that still require time and commitment to obtain, all they are asking for is a means to obtain the item over the course of time since.

Way I see it is like this, say if A entered into a competition for a prize and only 100 people received this prize (whatever you wish for the prize to me) however, the company holding the tournament and handed out the prizes realizes their is a demand for the prize and years later does a release so more people can get a chance at getting the prize. Does that inherently detracts from effort and skill displayed by those that were able to be one of the 100 people that won it before. Sure you can feel slighted, but end of the day outside of the social context your accomplishment in no way was devalued.

I am certain many people hold fairly common things of value that mark some achievement or accomplishment. First dollar made, diploma, a prize for a contest, etc . . . this is where the impasse stems from. For me personally, the value of an item is determined by me. I am sure even you have an item that has value to you despite how common/accessible it is. For example Naruto Ninja Storm 2 was the first game I ever bought with my own money, I still have it and it is extremely valuable to me despite how common it is. In the end we are the only ones that can determine the personal value of an item. Now social vale is another beast, and I will agree any changes made to the current system that makes past rewards obtainable over time will detract from the social value of an item. If that is what one cares about so be that is fine, not going to say that their sense of value is wrong since I have no right say that. I just wish more people would be honest if that that was the reason why they want the items to remain exclusive.

I get what Awha is trying to point out. Lets say the first 100 people who clear O8S get a mount but everyone else after don't get one. Did those people who came after put any less effort or work in than the first 100 people?

Pretty much haha, thank you.

[Aviars]

Your money example does not fit within this situation since if 1 million dollars were to be handed out to everyone that would cause inflation, which could lead to some negative impacts on our economy.

It actually does, especially since the items in question are meant as a REWARD for the TOP 100. They are explicitly meant to be rare and exclusive to the point where only 100 people per datacenter receive the reward in question. If you release the reward to the masses, guess what, the items get more common/inflated to the point where they aren't valued anymore.

In this case the negative impact is that nobody actually has to even care about trying to get top 100. Square Enix intends these rewards to create competition for top spots. Just accept the facts man.

[Awha]

It actually does, especially since the items in question are meant as a REWARD for the TOP 100. They are explicitly meant to be rare and exclusive to the point where only 100 people per datacenter receive the reward in question. If you release the reward to the masses, guess what, the items get more common/inflated to the point where they aren't valued anymore.

In this case the negative impact is that nobody actually has to even care about trying to get top 100. Square Enix intends these rewards to create competition for top spots. Just accept the facts man.

Your money example does not work since if one million dollars were given to everyone without doing anything that would cause mass inflation that has negative impacts on economy.

With the top 100 rewards, you say if they became more common no one would care about reaching top 100. In a social context yes if the reward was fairly common no one would give a shit about someones top 100 achievement, but on a personal level why does that matter? Competition would still exist among those that want to prove they are the very best, if their goal is to reach top 100 out of a sense of competition the commonality of a reward should have very little effect on ones drive to prove they are very best, unless said reason they were taking part in the competition was to lord the reward over others. Which is fine, but once again wish people would be more honest if that was the case.

In the end it really comes down to why someone took part in the activity. If someone does something solely for the rewards then I will agree any change will have a negative impact on that persons enjoyment, however if you take part in something for the chance to prove they are the best, or simply enjoy it. How common a reward is inherently does not detract ones accomplishment or the experience, and thus does not detract from the personal value placed on the reward as a result of reaching said goal. I think I am wrong but this line of thinking makes me feel as if someone should not be proud of getting their diploma because of how common they are now, and thus by how common they are in a social context yes a basic BA is not worth much of anything now.

[Aviars]

Inflation of rewards to regular players has negative impacts on competition. Same what the inflation of money has negative impacts on the economy. You seem to have a problem with accepting the fact that there are negative consequences to making the rewards available to everyone.

I can also just ignore your negative consequence of a ruined economy and keep touting how people who get the million dollars the hard way have a sense of accomplishment. As you can see it works both ways.

You should just accept you are wrong.

[Awha]

Inflation of rewards to regular players has negative impacts on competition. Same what the inflation of money has negative impacts on the economy. You seem to have a problem with accepting the fact that there are negative consequences to making the rewards available to everyone.

I can also just ignore your negative consequence of a ruined economy and keep touting how people who get the million dollars the hard way have a sense of accomplishment. As you can see it works both ways.

You should just accept you are wrong.

Yeah if you had access to all the money in the world and made the choice to give everyone one million dollars you are within your right to ignore the consequences, even if the data shows that this would be foolish being as you are the one in charge of the worlds money supply not much I can do to stop you. Even this situation if my million lost all social / materialistic value it would still hold personal value, sure I would be upset about how the system has changed, but being as the powers that be made a choice only thing I can reasonable do is make a request for change and see what comes of it. I will however not let anyone detract from the personal value of my accomplishment because of how common it is. You are right though, end of the day I would still have my sense of accomplishment.

You should accept that end of the day deep down you are the only person that can ever devalue what your top 100 reward represents. Just because Joe 1234 has the same mount as you does not mean to you personally that mount should have any less personal value to you. This is where we differ. I mean say if you had a fairly common degree, would you let the fact that your degree is common undermine the effort and skill you showed to receive said degree? I personally would hope not, since no one should sell themselves that short.

In the end I doubt anything will ever result in request to offer an alternative means to obtain past ranked rewards even if it is just a simple reskin. I just wish more people would be forthright when it comes to the reason why they want the items to remain exclusive. Cause in the end nothing wrong for taking part in something simply for the bragging rights, or doing something for the chance to have something very few people can have. Either way I doubt we will ever see eye to eye on this since we simply do not share the values, you seem to have a a materialistic value centric view which I am in no place to judge another person value system.

[Aviars]

Even this situation if my million lost all social / materialistic value it would still hold personal value, sure I would be upset about how the system has changed

Funny how you changed your tune and are now arguing the same point with money haha. Interesting how when you ignore the negative consequences your argument becomes the same exact thing as for the top 100 rewards huh?

You should accept that end of the day deep down you are the only person that can ever devalue what your top 100 reward represents.

Bold claim to make, and certainly not true. Plenty of people agree with me that the rewards should stay exclusive, there is no need for you to make up your talking points

I just wish more people would be forthright when it comes to the reason why they want the items to remain exclusive. Cause in the end nothing wrong for taking part in something simply for the bragging rights, or doing something for the chance to have something very few people can have.

And there is nothing wrong with rewarding people for doing better and not people who don't. That's life. Just accept it

[Awha]

Funny how you changed your tune and are now arguing the same point with money haha. Interesting how when you ignore the negative consequences your argument becomes the same exact thing as for the top 100 rewards huh?

Bold claim to make, and certainly not true. Plenty of people agree with me that the rewards should stay exclusive, there is no need for you to make up your talking points




And there is nothing wrong with rewarding people for doing better and not people who don't. That's life. Just accept it

Throughout all my posts where did I say it was not okay for someone to feel slighted if the system changed? Hell, I even said I understand were people are coming from when they want the change. I was using the money point since that is the only example you want to use. You have turned down college degrees, other items of value be it rewards, or car. So I went with your money point. Still your example only goes to show how it would effect the social / materialistic value of the accomplishment. I have never said that a change to the system would not do so.

Also plently people agree with me, it is not hard to find agreement among people that share similar views. Also I have never said their was anything wrong with rewarding people for things others cannot do. All I am saying is I wish people would stop hiding behind claims like how common a reward is inherently detracts from the value one places on a item. That is not true, it detracts from the social / materialistic value but the personal value just that personal that is solely determined by the owner of the item. You really did not get anyone here. Why is it so hard to simply come out and say you simply want the rewards to remain exclusive because you enjoy the bragging rights that come with it. Nothing wrong with that mindset, not sure why you cannot just come out and say it.

Please understand I do understanding why people want unique rewards, and nothing wrong with unique rewards. People are just making a request, in the end ball is always in SE court.

[Mantrus]

You should accept that end of the day deep down you are the only person that can ever devalue what your top 100 reward represents. Just because Joe 1234 has the same mount as you does not mean to you personally that mount should have any less personal value to you.

All I am saying is I wish people would stop hiding behind claims like how common a reward is inherently detracts from the value one places on a item. That is not true, it detracts from the social / materialistic value but the personal value just that personal that is solely determined by the owner of the item.

Personal value in something is rooted in any sort of objective quality about that item, and if you change those details then the valuation will change as well. One quality of the item is that only 100 people per Data Center has it, and if that changes then the value changes as well. Ignoring the background, context, or changes of an item, even if its not necessarily intrinsic to the item, is just asking people to pretend. And who are you to say how people should assign personal value to something?

Name one.

Every single mount or minion made available from end game content can be later unsynced and utterly stomped. Gordias Savage is notorious for being the most difficult fight pre-4.1 this game ever produced. Nowadays, you don't even need eight players. Likewise, you will skip virtually every single mechanic Brute Justice has; Alex Prime once required Tank LB3 yet now LB2 and Passage of Arms is enough to mitigate through it. Even Ultimate has no exclusivity since the rewards will always remain available, provided you find a group of seven other like-minded people with the skill to clear. So it's quite the opposite: the majority of endgame PvE content has no exclusive rewards.

By exclusive, I was referring to a reward being exclusive to one source instead of having multiple ways of getting the same reward. I am open to rereleasing previous PvP rewards if the method of achieving them remains the same: obtain top 100.

Those asking for a new means are simply making a request. By no means do I see them trying to belittle the accomplishment of reaching top 100, on the other hand most seem to be very understanding of the fact that they most likely will never reach the skill required to reach top 100. Thus they are asking for an alternative means that is achievable yet still takes time. If nothing comes from the request so be it, but only way to find out if something will come from it is simply to ask. So not 100% sure what you are trying to go with this.

I just meant to point out how pointless of an argument that line is. That's basically just saying you and Ava have a difference in opinion, except spinning it like a counterargument.