Request: Please give us alternate ways to obtain PVP armour and weapons

[Bourne_Endeavor]

A majority of end game content has exclusive rewards to promote its content in a unique way

Name one.

Every single mount or minion made available from end game content can be later unsynced and utterly stomped. Gordias Savage is notorious for being the most difficult fight pre-4.1 this game ever produced. Nowadays, you don't even need eight players. Likewise, you will skip virtually every single mechanic Brute Justice has; Alex Prime once required Tank LB3 yet now LB2 and Passage of Arms is enough to mitigate through it. Even Ultimate has no exclusivity since the rewards will always remain available, provided you find a group of seven other like-minded people with the skill to clear. So it's quite the opposite: the majority of endgame PvE content has no exclusive rewards.

[Awha]

Guys it is okay if top 100 players want the rewards to remain exclusive, but let us be real and stop insinuating the reason that the top 100 players want them to remain exclusive is because adding another means of getting past rewards over time inherently devalues the commitment and skill required to reach said goal of top 100, or some how trivializes the the accomplishment of reaching top 100. Also which rewards from PvE content remain unattainable as time goes on? Only thing I can think of the Pre-order bonus from pre ARR, and the items that came with being a player back from pre ARR. All of which were not obtained through in-game content to my knowledge.

I do not think anyone reasonably expects them to hand out past ranked rewards just for logging in, but people are asking for an additional means of obtaining them for those that do not have the skill level required to reach top 100. Also I do not think we should belittle the effort players put into a certain game mode successful or not.

[Aviars]

I do not think anyone reasonably expects them to hand out past ranked rewards just for logging in, but people are asking for an additional means of obtaining them for those that do not have the skill level required to reach top 100.

And to this I ask, why should people who do not put in the same effort and skill be able to obtain the same rewards of people that do provide the effort and skill needed for top 100?

[Zojha]

You are neglecting so many things here.

As do you. And it's gotten lengthy, so I'll put it in spoiler tags to not clutter the page.

Your entire premise for the first paragraph is: FFXIV players are more sensitive than players of other games. Okay, let's accept that for now. It then doesn't make sense however why those same players would play any other PvP game on the side where it's just as bad. You cannot explain that with toxicity as your only factor.

You might have noticed that yourself, because in the second paragraph, you then point out that this toxicity is largely related to ranked and you can play nonranked modes elsewhere where it isn't as bad. Makes sense, considering that they only restricted the chat in Feast.
What doesn't make sense then however is that Frontlines was dead long before Feast or Ranked were a thing. You can blame bots now, but those weren't a thing back then. Bots weren't a topic during the Seize days. And after a short while of quick 72 man pops, it died down to 24 man pops and ridic queues regardless. Shatter, same thing. We also had unranked 8vs8 Feast for a long while. No bots either, no to low toxicity. But they all died regardless. You're free to look at the JP data centers as well - They don't have a big bot issue. Everything dies just the same regardless.
Those modes also already had rewards - An exclusive achievement set (Field Commander), a mount (Aerodynamics System), the PvP exclusive ADS, the Warsteeds, the Fenrir Pup (Feast Unranked), tomes AND wolf marks. They still died. They also tried having dedicated PvP gear and progression as rewards for PvP in the early days. Result? Dead content and people abusing the lack of players to reliably trade wins.

And because they all died, SE over and over decided to increase the rewards. The first bot sightings apparently came with Garo, XP with Stormblood sealed the deal. That's why it's a "Circus of Bots" now and you don't have those options anymore. Ironically, it's a consequence of your own mindset: To shift the blame for the lack of popularity to side factors.
The issue isn't rewards. The issue isn't toxicity. The issue isn't bots. The real issue is that the gameplay is bad and because of that, the game mode keeps requiring more and more rewards to compensate for the lack of innate enjoyment which in turn lures in the bots who want the rewards without having to slog through the actual content. You can argue that this then creates a feedback loop where bots reduce the enjoyment even further, causing SE to require even more rewards leading to even worse botting. Be my guest. But the root of the whole thing lies elsewhere and remains unaddressed.

As for ranked PvP in general, it's a well known fact the vast majority of the playerbase in a given game isn't interested in it - Blame it on toxicity if you like. Even in the actual "E-Sports" titles, you won't find more than about 10-20% of the playerbase participating in Ranked. That is naturally bound to fail in a game that can't even attain a decently sized regular PvP population.
That's why attaining one is the first priority if you have ambitions to create a ranked mode. They just failed to do that since ARR because their PvP is bad and hasn't gotten much better since. And that's what's my concern here. People name all kinds of factors, but all PvP, ranked or casual, large scale or small scale, keeps dying regardless of them all. So it has to be something else. Something they all have in common. Gameplay is by far and wide the most likely candidate.

Finally, I personally doubt the Ranked PvP community truly grew. I think it largely just shifted around as old people left and new blood came in. If it did in fact grow ever so slightly and I'd have to point fingers on the reasons why, my first bet would be the introduction of wolf collars (I.E. guaranteed rewards for participation) coupled with the fact that the Rating system has been turned into a grind metric until Diamond thanks to skewed gains and losses.

I don't think anyone who didn't play before due to toxicity plays now after the chat ban, because you can be toxic without chat as you yourself ceaselessly point out. And if you are right and the chat ban did not in fact alleviate toxicity in a noteworthy manner as people start to be toxic in different ways, then it logically also cannot be a factor for growth either, because the growth is attributed to toxicity being reduced and you yourself claim that it didn't actually do that. It would be a contradiction in itself if it then did contribute to growth.

[Gallus]

And to this I ask, why should people who do not put in the same effort and skill be able to obtain the same rewards of people that do provide the effort and skill needed for top 100?

Because locking rewards behind an atmosphere of harassment and bullying (aka ranked mode) is not a good idea. It's not about skill or effort, it's about asking your players to endure insults and bashing from basement dwellers throughout an entire season. I'm certainly not a very good player, but I have total confidence over the fact I can make it to the top 100 (in fact, I did in S5, ended up 86 without playing a lot and got my hellhound armor, did not even try in S6 and I'm currently 55 in S7), but the amount of hate messages, ignore spam marking, chat spam or people outright afking/doing pushups when there's still one minute left is disgusting, and it leaves you with a horrible taste in your mouth and a strong desire to stop PVPing, even if you manage to make it in the top 100. SE shouldn't lock anything behind ranked beyond titles and achievements. SE's idea to make the total ranking instead of the current one count has been a fatal mistake too, in Chaos, you have people with 2200 elo leaving games on purpose because they were matched with someone they didn't like, and these people know full well they have their top 100 spots secured. These are your "hard working" guys that are gonna be rewarded for their effort.

[Awha]

And to this I ask, why should people who do not put in the same effort and skill be able to obtain the same rewards of people that do provide the effort and skill needed for top 100?

Who are we are determine the value the effort and commitment of those that have failed to reach top 100. Though leaving that aside why does it matter if someone less skilled has the chance to obtain the same reward over the course of time, while not being able to reach the skill level required to get top 100? Does the fact that someone farmed say 200 feast matches over the course of a year (just an example) detract from the effort and skill one put in to reach top 100 when said reward was relevant?

I think we will always be at an impasse when it comes down to it it seems that skill is a deciding factor for you personally (Forgive me if I am wrong) that determines the value of an accomplishment, so if someone you view as unworthy has the same reward as you but obtained it through a means that you to you does not equate to the same commitment. Which then opens up the door who are we to determine the weight one set of actions have over another.

Since the way I see it would it really be all that bad if the made it possible to obtain past rewards from the previous season once the new seasonal rewards have be awarded? For me personally no since as you know my personal commitment / effort verse another's will never hold the same weight, since for some, things come easier then others that is why I try to avoid using such measures to determine the value of an accomplishment. Hope that makes sense.

I will agree that those that hide behind toxic behavior, cheating, win trading etc . . . as a means of devaluing the accomplishment of reaching top 100 or a reason as to why they are unable to reach top 100 are using it as an excuse, just as I feel those that try to use skill and effort as a reason to gate players from a chance to obtain the rewards over time being disingenuous. Since the amount of people with said reward does not inherently detract from the skill and effort required to reach top 100. So the reward it question will still hold the same personal value, but in a social context yes more people that have access to the reward it detract from the value of the reward. Which for me is not a huge issue, but I know for others it would be, that is why I think the best system would be a time exclusive method that allows for players to earn past feast rewards through a currency obtained during the following season, and said currency can only be spent at the end of said said season to buy the previous seasons to rewards, but not the current season.

I never really got a straight answer from you though, would it really cheapen your experience / accomplishment if someone else had the same reward as you but gotten it through different means, or would you still value the accomplishment since you personally know what went into achieving said accomplishment.

[Mantrus]

I agree with the "who are we to determine..." argument. Who are we to determine new ways to obtain rewards or what rewards should be reintroduced to the game? SE has already made ways to get these items, and they have the final judgment.

I'll come back later to answer other stuff.

[Stormfur]

Awha, you have so eloquently put into words exactly the things I've been trying to say for so long. Thank you.

And yes, SE has the final say either way. But I think by and large, they want more participation in pvp, otherwise why completely reinvent the skills and give xp for it?

[Awha]

I agree with the "who are we to determine..." argument. Who are we to determine new ways to obtain rewards or what rewards should be reintroduced to the game? SE has already made ways to get these items, and they have the final judgment.

I'll come back later to answer other stuff.

Those asking for a new means are simply making a request. By no means do I see them trying to belittle the accomplishment of reaching top 100, on the other hand most seem to be very understanding of the fact that they most likely will never reach the skill required to reach top 100. Thus they are asking for an alternative means that is achievable yet still takes time. If nothing comes from the request so be it, but only way to find out if something will come from it is simply to ask. So not 100% sure what you are trying to go with this.

[Aviars]

To be honest you never actually give me a straight answer as to why people deserve what they can't have. Your "answer" is always a philosophical question of why should I care that people get something for "free" versus me/other people getting it through extreme effort and achievement.

It's actually quite mind boggling how you can say such things with a straight face. Why should I work for 1 million dollars if comparatively I could possibly just get 1 million dollars for doing absolutely nothing? You honestly have no sense of value of anything and why things hold value. How can something be considered an object of value when it's made extremely common/accessible?

You never answer these questions, you just say the same thing over and over.