Should WHM get a personal damage buff?

[EaMett]

Well that's kind of my point. With the difference that I maintain that outside of progression WHM is just still a worse AST (rDPS is lower, healing is equivalent since not that much is required, etc.).

[IttyBitty]

it's an example of undertuning.

Congratulations, you found the point.

SE has shown time and time again they are not going to tune "selfish" classes to have competitive output in comparison to the total pDPS and rDPS contributions of a class with DPS utility. Likely because it makes them far more powerful in solo/4-man content, and SE cares about that for whatever reason.

[basketofseals]

Well that's kind of my point. With the difference that I maintain that outside of progression WHM is just still a worse AST (rDPS is lower, healing is equivalent since not that much is required, etc.).

What does it even matter outside of progression? The most important part of content is actually clearing it. Meter chasers are a niche group within a niche group. If the minor damage disparity between WHM and SCH is enough to cause a wipe then you definitely need to look at your damage dealers instead.

[IttyBitty]

What does it even matter outside of progression? The most important part of content is actually clearing it.

Because WHMs who come late to the party or who have been pugging their clears start to find themselves excluded because progression is over.

[MoroMurasaki]

Because WHMs who come late to the party or who have been pugging their clears start to find themselves excluded because progression is over.

Except it isn't?

In a static that has been clearing reliably for weeks progression might be over, in pf progression doesn't end. There are new people getting into Savage throughout the tier. Are there more pfs requiring duty completion? Sure. Plenty of pug groups still flub a ton of mechs though, I can attest to that because I see it happen every week I pug any of this at all.

The extra healing output from WHM is far from irrelevant in the current playerbase pugging Savage, if you doubt that please tell me where to get the pugs you've been finding.

[basketofseals]

Because WHMs who come late to the party or who have been pugging their clears start to find themselves excluded because progression is over.

Right now I can open the PF and see 3 V8S clear parties, 1 V7S, and 2 V6S. Believe it or not, not everyone has been gunning to clear it since it was released.

WHMs being excluded is purely a speculative problem that doesn't actually exist. I've never been excluded from a group because I'm a WHM. In fact, I frequently have difficulty finding parties that don't already have a WHM in them.

[EaMett]

No one is talking about right now. We're comparing the end of HW with what could happen at the end of stormblood (mainly). It's well established that WHM-SCH is a good comfort comp at the moment. The topic has been about how WHM's extra healing output will become irrelevant in the future and place it in a sub AST spot as it was at the end of last expansion. WHMs never complained about mana or personal dps or healing output last expansion. They complained about lack of raid utility locking them out. It locked them out then and we're discussing whether or not it will lock them out this time as well.

[basketofseals]

No one is talking about right now. We're comparing the end of HW with what could happen at the end of stormblood (mainly).

The person me and MoroMurasaki are quoting are definitely talking about now. Unless they're somehow proclaiming that progression is and will now always be over. I'll give them more credit than that though.

[Shurrikhan]

Congratulations, you found the point.

SE has shown time and time again they are not going to tune "selfish" classes to have competitive output in comparison to the total pDPS and rDPS contributions of a class with DPS utility. Likely because it makes them far more powerful in solo/4-man content, and SE cares about that for whatever reason.

And you've missed it.

If the problem with its rDPS was that it's a "selfish" class, it wouldn't have less personal DPS than a non-selfish class, and wouldn't be unique in that condition, while BLM tops personal damage dealt to the boss on all but, by the thinnest of margins, Sigma 1S and 2S -- both of which are taken by Monk, both by a vast lead over other non-selfish classes and in all but one case, over SAM.

It's simply not properly tuned presently. That's it. Raid tools and actual parses, both, should not have a Monk outperforming a SAM in personal DPS. Nor should the theoretical maximum DPS for a BLM, an equally "selfish" class, be noticeably higher than for a SAM.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

It doesn't happen often, but it sure is disheartening to see occasional farm groups locking WHM out for no actual reason. Even messaged these groups thinking it was just PF listing being silly as it often does, but they really just wanted an AST/SCH group.

The thing is, while WHM has massive personal dps, they still don't beat an equally skilled SCH/AST that are also supplying raid buffs. It's not particularly bad, because you could say that their "raid buffs" is their more flexible and on demand healing, but obviously that's nowhere near as alluring as 300 more dps from Balance or Chain Strategem.

Couple that with the fact that WHMs better healing doesn't exactly mean much after you're better geared for the fight, and you have our current predicament.
Still, healers are very balanced right now, and I'd rather keep it this way than experience something on the level of Creator WHM again.

As for people afraid that WHM will once again end up ridiculously worse by the end of SB than the other healers, I don't think we'll need to worry about that so long as AST or SCH isn't superbuffed from here.