Idea to fix controversy about healer dps.

[KisaiTenshi]

I don't see the benefit here. Playing how you want isn't a benefit of playing how you want. Not dpsing as a healer because you don't want to isn't a benefit of not dpsing as a healer.

Not everyone wants to play the game your way, and they are free to do that. It cuts both ways. If you don't like how people are playing, and are unwilling to deal with what you get in a PUG, then you're the problem. Some content pretty much can't be done without PUG's. When I get Rabanastre, I know it's going to be a mess of people missing mechanics, and scale back DPS. Contrast that with Dun Scaith, where I'm still seeing entire parties fall off the ship at the beginning, but after that few or no raise's needed. If someone does not like the queue time, they are free to level a tank and see exactly what a tank does and perhaps realize it's not as easy as it looks, in trade for instant-queues for half the content. -That- is why I feel we keep seeing squishy impatient tanks.

What really gets me are on the 24-player content where people zerg the content. Yes it's not very healing intensive now, but it used to be, and you keep seeing people ignoring meteors, pads, floating... all mechanics that later appear in later content. You're not going to stand around waiting for someone to eat dirt.

[VanilleFang]

Rabanastre = scale back DPS

My parses in Rabanastre are around 95th percentile, WITH Pug

Edit: My healing fluctuates depending on who is MT. I'm usually top/second healer or near the bottom. Depends.

Edit2: my point being that woth proper practice and skill you can heal and DPS effectivly.

[MoroMurasaki]

Not everyone wants to play the game your way, and they are free to do that. It cuts both ways. If you don't like how people are playing, and are unwilling to deal with what you get in a PUG, then you're the problem.

It's group content. People are playing as part of a team. Giving 20% of the effort the rest of your team members are is bad, plain and simple.

Get over yourself, your entire perspective comes off as entitled to a ridiculous degree.

My parses in Rabanastre are around 95th percentile, WITH Pugs.

Same. But oh no, pugs are soooooo scary, they could never allow for decent dps uptime. Lol.

[Squintina]

Personally, I don't see the need to "fix" the controversy.

I'm a dps-ing healer. My static expects me to do so and I enjoy it. If my static was against it, I'd either adjust or leave.
Likewise if I were a non-dps-ing healer, I'd try to find a group that was looking for such a healer.

Then there's "easy" content. I write in quotes because I personally despise when people call dungeons easy as how "easy" they are is so dependent on what kind of pugs we end up with.

Do I get a little frustrated when I see a non-dps-ing healer? Sure, because the run could be like a little tiny bit faster if they manage better, but is it enough for me to care? Nah. Either way we'll beat it, and if I started to care about such things, I'd also have to start caring about the tanks that forget to pick up the extra adds that try to kill me, or the dps that aren't doing any mechs or dodging, or that 1 person who's in gear -20 levels from being even remotely level appropriate, and that much worrying with pugs is way too stressful. Sometimes it's easier to just leave or carry them.

Do I get a little frustrated when I see a tunnel vision dps-ing healer that forgets to heal? Of course, but that's because the person is tunnel-visioning, not because dps-ing is bad.

Either way I deal with it when it's "easy" content, and for endgame content, communication about expectations goes a long way.

[Tridus]

Not everyone wants to play the game your way, and they are free to do that.

So you're okay with a group where everyone else puts in similar effort and spends more than half their time doing nothing? Not bothering with cooldowns, doesn't believe in AoE, all that fun. They're playing the game their way, after all.

[KisaiTenshi]

Get over yourself, your entire perspective comes off as entitled to a ridiculous degree.

Maybe you should look in a mirror.

All I've said is that you need to stop demanding that people kotow to your playstyle. If the game had a way to "prevent ever being in a duty/party with this person" you'd quickly see all people making demands of other players blacklisted, and eventually everyone would stop seeing the others bad behavior, or be isolated.

No instead we have some very rude people who keep spouting the same complaints about PUG's, and the never-ending argument about healer DPS, despite Yoshi-P already said that there is no requirement for healers to DPS. Go look at the Japanese forum, the biggest thing they argue about is wanting to retool the SCH fairy.

So you're okay with a group where everyone else puts in similar effort and spends more than half their time doing nothing? Not bothering with cooldowns, doesn't believe in AoE, all that fun. They're playing the game their way, after all.

It would get very annoying if that's all that ever happened, but I'm not paying their sub, so they can play whatever way they want to play. If you don't want to be stuck with the bad players, that's what FC's are for. You may still get stuck with bad PUG groups for 24-player content, but there's no requirement to PUG any of the 4-player or 8-player content.

Personally, I don't see the need to "fix" the controversy.

I'm a dps-ing healer. My static expects me to do so and I enjoy it. If my static was against it, I'd either adjust or leave.
Likewise if I were a non-dps-ing healer, I'd try to find a group that was looking for such a healer.

Then there's "easy" content. I write in quotes because I personally despise when people call dungeons easy as how "easy" they are is so dependent on what kind of pugs we end up with.

That's the point that some people are completely missing. Just because it's "easy" doesn't mean you can just zerg it, or "watch netflix" as some idiots say. If you want to play the content and want control over the play styles, that's what the FC or forming a static is for. You're under no obligation to play with people you don't want to deal with that way.

[Calladan]

Wow. I found this thread just browsing around, and I'm having a hard time believing that there are healers who think they shouldn't DPS, and enough of them that there is a controversy, and an actual argument.

How much of the existing game content can you get through solo without DPSing at all? Thats exactly how much group content you should do without DPSing. A quick scan of the tank forum doesn't show any nonsense arguments about tanks not DPSing. Why should healers get to be so lazy? You want to just heal and nothing else, play by yourself, see how far that gets you.

The whole concept is nonsense, the game gives you offensive spells. Who gets in a group and honestly thinks to themselves "I could contribute more, but nah, I'll just let these other people work harder instead". Pathetic.

[Gemina]

YoshiP said that was only the case if everyone is already fully geared. If not (ie: when Savage tiers first come out), the DPSers have less gear than the devs test with and healer DPS is mandatory to make up the difference.

So yeah, it literally makes the difference between clearing and not clearing in that case. Fairly important difference.

I don't recall that at all. Is the dev team clearing newly released content with ilevels currently not available to the playerbase? And if not, then how are they clearing it? Please source where he says exactly what you are.

No they're not. Tanks can easily sit idle for long periods and hold enmity if they want to. One of the workarounds for the level disparity XP penalty in Eureka relies on it (the flash only PLD tank).

So why don't they? I've never witnessed any tank not at least keep their agro combo going after establishing agro with their AoE. And that's what they tend to get ripped for. To the tanking community, this is the equivalent of a healer standing idle. If a tank actually didn't even use their agro weaponskills and just stood there and auto attacked, and snatching hate back when he loses it; that would be even worse than either afore mentioned tank or healer. The consensus of the community as a whole is that NOBODY stands around doing nothing, so I'd keep the comparisons on equal footing.

If you can tell me why it's okay for a healer to stand around doing nothing and not okay for any other role to do so, then the whole thing would end. Nobody's been able to do that... because it's indefensible.

That's just it; I'm not defending it. This a two way street dude, and what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immoveable object. Those pushing the issue aren't any different from those who do defend it. It's not even about who is right, and who is wrong anymore. The whole thing will end, and only end when both sides just drop it.

[Tridus]

I don't recall that at all. Is the dev team clearing newly released content with ilevels currently not available to the playerbase? And if not, then how are they clearing it? Please source where he says exactly what you are.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3007437

Remember that when a new tier comes out, people aren't geared yet. Like, if this tier was set for DPS at ilvl 350 for savage, nobody had that on day 1. Thus, if you want to clear on day 1, healer DPS is mandatory. You don't see any early clear groups with pure healers. There's just no room to carry people at that level.

So why don't they? I've never witnessed any tank not at least keep their agro combo going after establishing agro with their AoE. And that's what they tend to get ripped for. To the tanking community, this is the equivalent of a healer standing idle. If a tank actually didn't even use their agro weaponskills and just stood there and auto attacked, and snatching hate back when he loses it; that would be even worse than either afore mentioned tank or healer. The consensus of the community as a whole is that NOBODY stands around doing nothing, so I'd keep the comparisons on equal footing.

It's not equivalent, that's the thing. Go to the tank forum and pitch a tank that's idle 50% of the time or more. Nobody will defend it. Go to the DPS forum and pitch it. Nobody will the defend it.

It's only among the healers that anyone at all thinks this behavior is acceptable. I'm fairly sure that psychology comes from other games where the healer role is almost entirely healing focused and there's much less time/MP to do anything else. And while that's fine, exporting that here doesn't work because that's not the game we have.

If it's the game people want to have, that's a seperate issue. What healing should look like in 5.0 is fair game, but it doesn't change what we have right now.

[MoroMurasaki]

Maybe you should look in a mirror.

You.

The whole concept is nonsense, the game gives you offensive spells. Who gets in a group and honestly thinks to themselves "I could contribute more, but nah, I'll just let these other people work harder instead". Pathetic.

Read this.

Every time you think about extending this stupid argument here is the only answer anyone needs to give you.